Posts: 205
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 21:33
Fishings scat, minings scat, farmings scat, clay workings scat, health service scat, NHS dentistry scat, Cornish farings company scat, Chicken factory up Bodmins scat (60 jobs lost), jobs scat, flag scat, Cornish scat !
Over my dead body ! I am breaking the law and will continue to do so by flying my beloved St. Piran's flag & I have written to every local and national paper that I can find e-mail addresses for, to my M.P. to Yvette Cooper M.P. and to the local council inviting my prosecution. We really mmust start getting active here or else there will be nothing left to discuss !
Posts: 205
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 21:56
More Headlines | Back to home page
11:00 - 26 July 2006
Thousands of patriotic Cornishmen were facing the renewed threat of investigation by council planning inspectors last night - after the Government confirmed that planning permission is needed to fly the flag of St Piran.
Guidance issued by the Planning Minister Yvette Cooper yesterday included a slight relaxation of the controversial rules governing the flying of flags. But although the EU flag, the United Nations flag and the Commonwealth flag have been added to the list of "national" flags that can be flown without permission, the famous Cornish emblem has not.
The decision means that thousands of Cornish households flying the distinctive black and white flag of St Piran without planning permission could face enforcement action and fines. Similar problems could also face the growing number of people flying the green, white and black Devon flag, which was also left off the list.
The guidance supersedes informal advice given by the former Planning Minister Keith Hill two years ago. In the face PLANNING TO FLY A FLAG? BETTER GET PERMISSION
More Headlines | Back to home page
11:00 - 26 July 2006
Thousands of patriotic Cornishmen were facing the renewed threat of investigation by council planning inspectors last night - after the Government confirmed that planning permission is needed to fly the flag of St Piran.
Guidance issued by the Planning Minister Yvette Cooper yesterday included a slight relaxation of the controversial rules governing the flying of flags. But although the EU flag, the United Nations flag and the Commonwealth flag have been added to the list of "national" flags that can be flown without permission, the famous Cornish emblem has not.
The decision means that thousands of Cornish households flying the distinctive black and white flag of St Piran without planning permission could face enforcement action and fines. Similar problems could also face the growing number of people flying the green, white and black Devon flag, which was also left off the list.
The guidance supersedes informal advice given by the former Planning Minister Keith Hill two years ago. In the face of a major Cornish backlash over the rules, Mr Hill suggested that local councils might turn a blind eye to the "illegal" flying of the Cornish and Devon flags.
Lib-Dem peer Lord Tyler, who took up the issue two years ago when he sought advice about flying the Cornish flag in his own garden, described the latest move as a "backward step".
Lord Tyler said it was "very disappointing" that ministers had failed to use the review of the planning regulations to provide a specific exemption for the Cornish flag.
He said: "This is a betrayal of the promises given by the former minister to look favourably on the Cornish flag. It is an absurd anomaly that you can fly the Afghan flag or the Zimbabwean flag with impunity in Cornwall yet you cannot fly the only one that has any real meaning.
"No Cornish council would dare to do anything so stupid as to enforce these absurd rules, but the Government should recognise they are putting them in a very awkward position.
"This is an issue which causes huge irritation and unnecessary offence and I hope every true Cornishman and woman will write to Yvette Cooper asking her to change her mind."
Bert Biscoe, chairman of the Cornish Constitutional Convention, urged people in Cornwall to respond to the consultation on the new guidance by sending their views to Ms Cooper. He said the latest move could even provide an opportunity to get the Cornish flag included on the national list once and for all.
Mr Biscoe said: "Everyone in Cornwall who feels that St Piran's flag identifies Cornwall to the world should write to the minister and ask that, because Cornwall is a special place, it flag should be included on the list of those that do not need planning permission."
Former Dartmouth ferryman Kevin Pyne said the ruling was likely to cause similar offence in Devon, where the emblem of a white cross with a black border on a green background has proved increasingly popular in recent years.
Mr Pyne, who flew the first ever Devon flag, said he had previously received a letter from the government suggesting it would look favourably on Devon's case.
He said: "The whole nation is struggling to pay ever-rising fuel bills, the environment is a complete mess, we are running out of energy and all the Government can think of to do is chase a lame ferryman because he wants to fly the flag of the county he loves.
"The Devon flag is a simple, honest flag that pays respect to Devon's past Celtic history. It does no harm to anyone.
"All this is is another tax. The local authorities will say yes to all the applications and charge you £50 for the privilege. It is ridiculous."
The rules governing flags were originally devised in the early 1990s to prevent a proliferation of flags carrying advertising. Any national flag - including those of England, Wales and Scotland - may be flown with impunity, but all others are treated as advertisements and require planning permission.
The new guidance, which will be subject to a three-month consultation, is designed to update the rules.
The decision to give the EU flag the status of a national flag is also likely to provoke an outcry among Eurosceptics. The proposal, which was first revealed by the WMN at the end of last year, follows a number of representations from local councils who were irritated at having to deal with complaints from Eurosceptics reporting possible infringements of the law.
Neil Parish, Conservative MEP for the South West, described the move as "ridiculous and provocative".
of a major Cornish backlash over the rules, Mr Hill suggested that local councils might turn a blind eye to the "illegal" flying of the Cornish and Devon flags.
Lib-Dem peer Lord Tyler, who took up the issue two years ago when he sought advice about flying the Cornish flag in his own garden, described the latest move as a "backward step".
Lord Tyler said it was "very disappointing" that ministers had failed to use the review of the planning regulations to provide a specific exemption for the Cornish flag.
He said: "This is a betrayal of the promises given by the former minister to look favourably on the Cornish flag. It is an absurd anomaly that you can fly the Afghan flag or the Zimbabwean flag with impunity in Cornwall yet you cannot fly the only one that has any real meaning.
"No Cornish council would dare to do anything so stupid as to enforce these absurd rules, but the Government should recognise they are putting them in a very awkward position.
"This is an issue which causes huge irritation and unnecessary offence and I hope every true Cornishman and woman will write to Yvette Cooper asking her to change her mind."
Bert Biscoe, chairman of the Cornish Constitutional Convention, urged people in Cornwall to respond to the consultation on the new guidance by sending their views to Ms Cooper. He said the latest move could even provide an opportunity to get the Cornish flag included on the national list once and for all.
Mr Biscoe said: "Everyone in Cornwall who feels that St Piran's flag identifies Cornwall to the world should write to the minister and ask that, because Cornwall is a special place, it flag should be included on the list of those that do not need planning permission."
Former Dartmouth ferryman Kevin Pyne said the ruling was likely to cause similar offence in Devon, where the emblem of a white cross with a black border on a green background has proved increasingly popular in recent years.
Mr Pyne, who flew the first ever Devon flag, said he had previously received a letter from the government suggesting it would look favourably on Devon's case.
He said: "The whole nation is struggling to pay ever-rising fuel bills, the environment is a complete mess, we are running out of energy and all the Government can think of to do is chase a lame ferryman because he wants to fly the flag of the county he loves.
"The Devon flag is a simple, honest flag that pays respect to Devon's past Celtic history. It does no harm to anyone.
"All this is is another tax. The local authorities will say yes to all the applications and charge you £50 for the privilege. It is ridiculous."
The rules governing flags were originally devised in the early 1990s to prevent a proliferation of flags carrying advertising. Any national flag - including those of England, Wales and Scotland - may be flown with impunity, but all others are treated as advertisements and require planning permission.
The new guidance, which will be subject to a three-month consultation, is designed to update the rules.
The decision to give the EU flag the status of a national flag is also likely to provoke an outcry among Eurosceptics. The proposal, which was first revealed by the WMN at the end of last year, follows a number of representations from local councils who were irritated at having to deal with complaints from Eurosceptics reporting possible infringements of the law.
Neil Parish, Conservative MEP for the South West, described the move as "ridiculous and provocative".
Posts: 1
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 21:56
members of the redcoat governments ears apart, doesn't it?
Lugger
Posts: 141
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 22:19
But I fully agree, there shouldn't be any question at all about hanging/flying a St. Piran in Cornwall. Saying they'll turn a blind eye is saying it's still illegal and doesn't deserve legitimate status but we wont prosecute. It's insulting, like they are confirming their contempt for the flag.
Posts: 205
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 22:22
House of Commons
LONDON
SW1A 0AA
or email:
coopery@parliament.co.uk
Posts: 206
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 22:38
National flags ban to be lifted - Outdated laws banning the flying of national flags are to be scrapped. Currently it is illegal to fly a national flag without permission from a local council -unless it is flown from a vertical flagpole.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5211952.stm
Posts: 1597
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 22:49
To be honest I never new that it was illegal to fly a flag from your own house, I think that the above comment is an outrage and that every Cornish person should make a stand and fly the flag.
Fooboo reckons you only need permission if your flying your flag from a pole, so does this mean you can fly it without a pole?
Posts: 348
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 22:59
Why oh why does the British government fear us so.
Posts: 206
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 23:12
Declaration of Kernow 2006
"For as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any condition be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself." ( extract from the Declaration of Arbroath 1474 asserting Scotland's right to international recognition as an independent country and still relevent to ALL Celtic nations today)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath
Posts: 277
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 23:26
), the Yorkshire white rose, the Northumberland flag, the Bedfordshire flag etc etc are all in the same boat.Why pretend that the Cornish are being uniquely persecuted? :? :?: I genuinely don't get this. Especially as I was in Kernow last weekend and plenty of premises were flying the Gwyn ha Du without any threat of prosecution.
Patrick
Posts: 141
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 23:46
I suppose it stems from the fact that there is no contention that Yorkshire et. al. are counties and therefore not entitled to a 'national' flag but Cornwall maintains it is a nation not a county.
The roses etc. aren't national flags. Saying national flags can be flown but the St. Piran can't means that it is the only national flag being singled out.
Posts: 1107
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 00:03
The British Myth has been exposed for what it is and it is now safe to legalise 'national' flags for the good of the English cause. As always, the Cornish Case has to be fought for!
TGG
http://www.kernowtgg.co.uk
Posts: 277
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 00:27
OK, but it doesn't feel that great being an English person under the present UK administration, not least because of the imposed "regional assemblies". The Government is not acting on behalf of the general population of England, or the rest of the UK; it's looking after itself.
Yes, some folk in Kernow regard their flag as national, but I don't see a reason why it should be legally priveleged above the English regional flags, especially when some of these regions have larger populations than Kernow, and a strong identity to boot.
In practise I think you can get away with flying a St Piran's flag, or any of the regional English flags.(funny, I've never seen an SWRA flag
). Ideally, they should all be formally legal.Patrick
Posts: 205
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 00:51
I have invited prosecution of me by Yvette Cooper and Carrick District Council and I shall take every pleasure in arriving for the trial at which I shall plead not guilty wearing my best kilt and the medals the stangnant Queen's representatives were pleased to pin on me. I shall also take every pleasure in handing them in to the Court who are representatives of that Crown to which I bear no allegiance any more.
Posts: 2305
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 05:11
I don't think this law really should worry anyone in Cornwall....
Unless you want a replay of the last "the Cornish flag is banned" debacle?
Posts: 295
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 08:37
Yes, us.
Posts: 205
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 10:18
I have passed in my name and address and I was told that I was likely to get a visit by a Planning Officerion. I shall remain polite and calm and invite court action accordingly. I trust enough publicity will result to make my stand worthwhile !
Posts: 2305
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 10:59
Who's got the balls, as Freekernow obviously has, to put their money where their mouth is?
I wonder if Chris would be kind enough to host pictures of the members flags being flown, here?
Posts: 205
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 11:50
Thanks for any support. I actually found Carrick District Council very pleasant about the whole thing and I shall be the same back. They are not to blame as I see it.
Posts: 295
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 11:52
My only two neighbours are Forestry Commission who don't bother us, and a farmer who is of Cornish descent, even though his first language is Welsh.
The area where my house is was once a lead and copper mining area so odd as it may seem
there were Cornish working the mines. Bit of a "Little Kernow" in North Wales !!!!!!!!
BTW referring back to my earlier posting, the officials on these councils not only have their wages paid by us but have a real talent for wasting our money being petty like this.
Posts: 295
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 11:56
Posts: 205
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 12:03
Posts: 1347
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 12:29
We had a St Pirans flag outide our tent in Wales earlier this year - purely so the kids could differentiate our tent from the others. We had so much abuse it became funny in the end.
Posts: 941
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 12:58
Posts: 1347
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 13:42
Posts: 941
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 13:45
Posts: 1347
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 13:50
Posts: 941
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 14:19
Posts: 295
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 14:26
If you mean abuse from the Welsh then I think it is because they did not know what the flag represents. I live in Wales and have made every effort to fit in, not like the majority of the English. My kids learnt Welsh at school, in fact my daughter got a top grade A level in Welsh even though she only started learning at 12.
In fact several of her Welsh teachers were hardcore Welsh, one was the daughter of a police chief who spent many nights in her dads cells for defacing English signs !!!
As part of her media course she got a chance to visit S4C (Welsh language TV station) and even the most radical Welsh there were impressed by her Cornish heritage and her love of Welshness. I do have to say though, her maternal grandmother was Welsh so my kids have very little English in them, if any.
I always explain my heritage to my Welsh friends and neighbours, and I have had no abuse at all, completely the opposite.
Posts: 1347
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 14:28
Posts: 295
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 14:31
To return to the original topic, if any other ethnic group in the UK was not allowed to fly their flag there would be uproar !
Rastas in Brixton being hassled by the local council for wearing big wooly hats in the colours of the Jamaican flag ??????
Purely and simply, this ruling is racist.
Should be reported to the police who are duty bound to deal with all complaints of racism, especially one as well documented as this one.
Posts: 941
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 14:36
Posts: 4525
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 15:37
Yvette Cooper M.P.
Minister for Planning
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA
Request for Information Under the Freedom of Information Act
Dear Ms Cooper
I am concerned by the reports in the local press (Western Morning News, 26 July 2006) of your decision requiring those wishing to fly the Cornish flag, the Cross of St Piran, to first obtain planning permission.
As you will no doubt be aware, this flag, a symbol for Cornish people the World over, (in contrast to the new county flag of Devon that was invented by the BBC a couple of years ago) was flown at the Battle of Agincourt in 1415 by Cornish longbowmen and is far older than most of the flags which you have decided do not require similar planning permission before they can be displayed on public buildings and private properties.
The flag of St Piran, symbolic of Cornish national identity for centuries, is apparently being treated in a different manner from those representing other national identities and I would like you to explain precisely why that is the case. In addition, I would be most grateful if you would answer the following supplementary questions:
1) What documentation or other evidence can you produce to support your decision not to include the Cross of St Piran in the list of flags that can be flown without planning permission?
2) With which regional and local authorities did you consult before taking your decision ? If you did not consult local councils, please give your reasons why not. If you did receive input from local authorities, please supply copies of correspondence.
3) Bearing in mind the Report of the Royal Commission on the Constitution, published in 1973 (known as the Kilbrandon Report) which affirms that Cornwall is a duchy and not a county, your decision not to include the Cornish flag in your list seemingly denudes the Duke of Cornwall and his Duchy of their constitutional status whilst at the same time it diminishes the special relationship of Cornish people with the heir to the throne. Did you seek the advice of the Duke of Cornwall, or a representative of the Duchy of Cornwall, before reaching your decision not to include the Cornish flag on your list, if not, why not? If you did receive advice from the Duke of Cornwall, or his representative, what was it?
4) What is the legal definition of "national" to which you referred when compiling your list of "national" flags that do not require planning permission?
5) Please supply a list of all national flags, in your updated list of flags, which have caselaw precedent.
I look forward to hearing from you in twenty working days.
Yours sincerely
Posts: 141
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 19:01
Posts: 141
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 19:02
Posts: 228
Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 23:46
Posts: 2305
Posted:
28.Jul 2006 - 04:36
I'm good for a few quid too Mike.
Don't get suckered Nige...
So are you saying that this law is only being used in Cornwall?
One of the problems that could be faced if unrestriced flags, posters, and banners were to be allowed?
"Colton Heaton"? That's just cruel....
Posts: 295
Posted:
28.Jul 2006 - 10:09
?
Posts: 1347
Posted:
28.Jul 2006 - 10:19
I think you're probably right but no-one came and asked us what it was. If they had we'd have been glad to explain a) what it was and b) why we had it flying in the first place. One woman took to comng past the tent at 6am and shouting 'This is Wales!' at us. Daft bat
Posts: 205
Posted:
28.Jul 2006 - 17:44
God Bless you all !
Posts: 205
Posted:
28.Jul 2006 - 21:08
Yvette Cooper MP
Minister for Planning
House of Commons
London SW1A 0AA
Dear Minister,
With reference to your reported decision not to include the Cornish
flag
of St Piran in your list of flags which may be flown without planning
permission.
It seems that you are totally out of touch with your colleague the
Secretary
of State for Culture, Media and Sport ,and the involvement of that
Secretary's Department in the recent bid by your Government for the
Cornwall
and West Devon Mining Landscape to be included on the World Heritage
List.
Page 44 of the 237 page official publication dealing with the
Nomination
states the following:
" In the late twentieth century, the industrial cultural heritage of
rugby,
choirs and dialect merged with the revival of other cultural traditions
such
as Celtic music and dance, and the Cornish language itself, and together
they now underpin a vibrant, dynamic and changing cultural identity.
Perhaps
the most visible sign of this development is the flag of St Piran, the
patron saint of Cornish tinners, which is in widespread use. The flag -
a
white cross on a black background -symbolises the tin metal set in a
black
background of charcoal ashes and represents contemporary Cornish pride
in a
sense of identity and inheritance.
The closure of South Crofty Mine. 1998. The flag of St Piran, the patron
saint of Cornish tinners, is a symbol that unites the Cornish in
Cornwall;
and with the global diaspora of people of Cornish descent.
St Piran's flag is also unfurled at events in North America and South
Australia connected with a renewed sense of trans-national Cornishness.
This
reinvigorated global sense of Cornishness influences contemporary
Cornish
culture. It manifests itself in such twinning agreements as those
between
the Cornish towns of Redruth and Bodmin and their respective
counterparts in
the U.S.A. at Mineral Point, Wisconsin, and Grass Valley, California. A
similar arrangement is proposed between Camborne in Cornwall and
Pachuca in
Mexico. In this way 'Cornishness' continues to have a unique
international
dimension. "
The above extract also includes a coloured photograph of several Flags
of
St Piran, with the accompanying comment:
" The closure of South Crofty Mine. 1998. The flag of St Piran, the
patron
saint of Cornish tinners, is a symbol that unites the Cornish in
Cornwall;
and with the global diaspora of people of Cornish descent. "
As it appears that the World Heritage Bid has been successful,
(though
not yet made public) you can see that UNESCO has a different opinion to
the
English Minister for Planning as to the significance of the Flag of St
Piran. If UNESCO feels able to accept the existence and symbolism of
the
Flag of St Piran, then why not your Department? It appears that your
advisors have been remiss in not acquainting you with all the facts and
factors regarding the Flag ,and with the depth of feeling, not only in
the
Duchy of Cornwall, but elsewhere in the Cornish Diaspora.
Under the circumstances would you not consider it commonsense to
rethink
your decision? No doubt you will have already be made cognizant with
the
comments of Lord Tyler (lately Paul Tyler, MP for North Cornwall)
regarding
it.
I would further point out that many Cornish people have been enraged by
what
they regard as a culturally insensitive action. It certainly does not
predispose the Cornish electorate towards voting for Labour candidates
in
the next General Election.
You have also placed District Councils in an unenviable position as
many DC
planning departments are being notified by taxpayers like myself that :
they are now flying a Flag of St Piran on their property;
that they have no intention whatsoever of applying for planning
permission
to fly their National Flag;
that, like myself, they have determined that they would rather suffer
imprisonment than do so.
I do not think that this is the kind of publicity which would be
sought by
any elected Member of the English legislature.
I remain,
Posts: 277
Posted:
28.Jul 2006 - 23:39
Er, thanks but no thanks. Is this not one rule for you, one rule for me?
So are you really saying the the St Piran Gwyn ha Du should be legal, but the (my) Lancastrian Red Rose shouldn't? One rule for you, one rule for me or what? (especially given the constitutional position
http://www.duchyoflancaster.org.uk/output/page14.asp
I hope that clarifies the situation. St Piran, Cornwall should be legal along side the Red Rose.
Fair deal.
Regards,
Patrick
Posts: 205
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 09:29
Posts: 1347
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 09:54
Posts: 228
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 11:04
Posts: 746
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 11:23
Posts: 1961
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 13:20
I really couldn't give a hoot in hell about the English Counties.
Er, thanks but no thanks. Is this not one rule for you, one rule for me?
Quote:
This is Cornwall. It may be smaller and less populated than some areas but it is bigger than the Isle of Man and they're allowed their own flag. Size should not matter !
So are you really saying the the St Piran Gwyn ha Du should be legal, but the (my) Lancastrian Red Rose shouldn't? One rule for you, one rule for me or what? (especially given the constitutional position
http://www.duchyoflancaster.org.uk/output/page14.asp
I hope that clarifies the situation. St Piran, Cornwall should be legal along side the Red Rose.
Fair deal.
Regards,
Patrick
Well, this is my first contribution to this forum so I am a novice. However, I am willing to learn and I would like to start with understanding Mr Fishwick's point of view outlined in the above quote posted ealier on this forum.
Firstly, bearing in mind the comment in the "inspired" letter written to the Minister, Yvette Cooper, and posted by Falub, that Cornwall is a "duchy" and not a "county", I would be grateful if somebody would explain why Cornwall should be treated in the same manner as English counties.
Secondly, the analogy with the Duchy of Lancaster which Mr Fishwick draws upon to, presumably, if the nature of his previous postings on this site is anything to go by, diminish the unique status of Cornwall within the UK unwitten Constitution, is not at all appropriate. I am able to assert this for the following reasons:
1) There is no indigenous, minority recognised language peculiar to Lancashire, in Lancashire or anywhere else. Cornwall, of course, has its own indigenous Celtic language, spoken both in Cornwall and throughout the Diaspora.
2) Lancashire/ the Duchy of Lancaster does not have a distinct and entirely seperate folklore tradition from that of the English majority of the UK. Cornwall does.
3) Unless I am greatly mistaken, the current head of state, is the Duke of Lancaster, the same head of state as the rest of the UK, with the exception of Kernow, which as everybody knows has the Duke of Cornwall. He, and not the Queen, exercises the royal prerogative in Cornwall alone (to do so anywhere else would be illegal). This fact on itself makes the Duchy of Cornwall a very different animal from the Duchy of Lancaster.
4) The inhabitants of Lancashire are NOT in an historic, unresolved territorial dispute with central government. The situation in Cornwall is very different, as the very existence of this forum is testifimony. Under such circumstances, it is, perhaps, understandable why the flying of the flag of St Piran is such a sensitive issue.
5) The Duchy of Lancaster and other English counties do not have a Gorsedh, or analagous cultural organisations to promote their cultural interests.
6) The "Red Rose" is well-known as an historic symbol appertaining to one warring faction of the English majority of the UK, against another. The Cornish flag is symbolic of a UK minority.
7) To my knowledge, there is no worldwide, organised diaspora relating to English counties, including the Duchy of Lancaster. In Australia, as some members of this forum will confirm, there are Cornish associations in all of the Australian states. The same is true of the USA and other parts of the World where mining has/is taking place. Although in Cornwall, we have an adjective, i.e. "Cornish" which describes our culture and language etc, I have yet to see, in titles of organisations, similar adjectives describing English counties and the Duchy of Lancaster. Is there a LAV (Lancashirish Association of Victoria)?
Of course, I could continue but, for the moment will finish by asking Mr Fishwick one final question. Why does he continue cynically to contribute to a Cornish forum when his points of view (and those of others, I hasten to add) would be better placed on more appropriately English forums?
Posts: 2674
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 13:48
Posts: 733
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 13:52
Posts: 1961
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 14:12
Posts: 206
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 14:45
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cornwall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_status_of_Cornwall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall_%28territorial_duchy%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_people
Posts: 295
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 15:04
Maybe if you spoke to the welsh and expalined the Cornish situation they might take an interest.
I always do this and always get the same rely "I didn't know....."
I worked in Dublin a while back and the Irish were fascinated to know about our heritage.
Don't be ashamed of your heritage - tell people who might be interested as well, i.e. the Welsh and the Irish, they have struggled and fought to free themselves of English domination.
Posts: 205
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 15:18
Meanwhile, hereunder my response to Carrick Council's communication with me:
The Planning Department
Development Services
Carrick District Council
Carrick House
Pydar Street
TRURO
TR1 1GT 29th July, 2006
Dear Sir
Town & Country Planning Act, 1990 - Town & Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations, 1992 - The Flag of Saint Piran of the Tinners of Cornwall
I write to thank you very much for your recent communication together with its enclosures most notably application forms compiled under the abovementioned Act and Statutory Instrument to allow for consent to display an advertisement, supplementary questions and a list of fees which seems to indicate that I am required to submit £75 to allow for the process of such an application.
I have read through all documentation sent to me very carefully.
I am flying the Flag of Saint Piran from a flag pole in my garden. The flag pole is visible from without my property. I am not in business and I am not advertising anything.
I believe I have a right as a Cornishman to fly the flag of St. Piran in and from my own property. This pole has been in place for many years and I am sure that you will know that the flag in question, black with a white cross, has been widely recognised as that of Cornwall. This fact has even been noted in the submissions to the United Nations concerning Cornwall’s bid, now successful, for UNESCO World Heritage status.
To the best of my knowledge, there have been no local complaints regarding my flag and indeed, many others may be seen in my locale as well as across our Duchy.
I have written to Yvette Cooper M.P. Minister for Planning about this as I cannot understand why our flag is classed as an advertisement. Indeed, its origins actually predate the Union Flag.
Whilst I understand that you are obligated to enforce the law and I can assure you that you can expect every co-operation from me in the execution of your duties to include any investigation to gather evidence and subsequent process, I am afraid that this is very much a matter of deeply held principle on my part and I shall continue to fly the St. Piran’s flag.
I believe strongly in the rule of law and also of equality before the law. This equality does not seem to often apply in respect of the Cornish people and I am prepared to contest this matter and to call upon my rights not only as a Cornishman but as a Citizen of Europe. Often laws need to be questioned and challenged just as they were in South Africa and India by passive methods in order to bring to light unjust legislation as in this individual case.
I so trust that you understand my feelings and assure you of every polite assistance whilst looking forward to your earliest response.
Yours faithfully,
Posts: 1961
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 15:34
Although this is sometimes a very slow and frustrating method of disseminating information, there are encouraging signs that awareness of our situation is increasing, if not at home but certainly on the Continent.
There has been a significant rise in the number of visits by foreign film crews and reporters in the past few months. The most recent being a film crew from the Romantsch-speaking area of Switzerland which came to Cornwall, not because they regarded us as "English" but because they view us as a distinct national minority with our own threatened minority language.
I am reliably informed that the journalist was both horrified and encouraged by the visit. Horrified by the depressing state of the Cornish economy and the affect which the lack of recognition and severe of lack of funding has had upon our cultural interests - encouraged by the tenacity of Cornish people to have developed and promoted their language and culture in the face of such adversity and hostility.
No doubt, similar crews will be coming in the months ahead.
I am advised that in the Rhaeto-Romantsch parts of Switzerland, too , they have their fair share of quislings and people who are willing to accept crumbs instead of a fair deal etc. However, they do not seem to be experiencing the kind of interference by the Swiss majorities on analogous Romantsch web-sites when compared to this one which sometimes appears to be overrun by Anglo-centric opinion in support of the majority. I think that is very, very strange indeed.
Posts: 206
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 15:51
Another point worth noting here was that the Cornish were allocated their own ethnic code (06) for the 2001 UK Census and for all subsequent censuses (even though it was not widely publicised at the time).
How many other UK "counties" or duchies have been allocated a census code ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_2001_Ethnic_Codes
Posts: 1961
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 16:17
Posts: 746
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 16:57
If we have an ethnic code we are a people.
If we are a people then we are a nation.
If we are a nation then we should have a distinctive political establishment - a Cornish Assembly.
Posts: 206
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 19:40
...and be able to fly our national flag !!
Posts: 1961
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 20:38
As one who has just joined this forum, I would be very grateful if an Assembly supporter might explain this point, especially since Mr Prescott and his lackeys have bent over backwards to dismiss their appeal.
Although, as a Cornishman, I would be very keen to see a devolved government in Cornwall, I have a very niggling feeling that, unless the Constitutional status of Cornwall and its Duke is clarified, any attempt to gain devolved status which ignores that unique status, would be thwarted by the Monarchist English Establishment.
Posts: 746
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 22:08
Cornwall certainly has a distinctive constitutional heritage. It is dreadful that that heritage was usurped by the Establishment and that Westminster is now fully taken over government of our Duchy.
The prospect of the re-establishment of a Cornish Stannary Parliament with update constitution and far-ranging powers seems to be far, far away. Devolution is a process which is well established and would allow for some powers vested at Westminster to be returned to the people of Cornwall, in the short term it is much more likely to be achieved and would instantly establish a modern democratic institution with aspects of devolved government.
As far as I can see there is no reason why that can't eventually take on all previous Stannary and constitutional aspects if it has the support of the people. It may well be that my view is incorrect and that as 'hunlef' says the establishment will attempt to thwart moves towards devolution. In that case there seems to be merit in both approaches.
Posts: 3892
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 22:41
They won't act. They have to live here. Ms Cooper doesn't, she's safely 300 miles away. How many people have been prosecuted during the 2 or 3 years since the Cornish flag on car number plates was supposedly outlawed. I think the last count was . . . um . . . none.
Keep flying the flag, boys and girls.
Penwithian-in-California asked why they're so afraid of us. I think it comes down to a question of the ownership of Britain. This lies where it always did - in the hands of its indigenous Celtic people. Supremacist bluster, wealth and balance of power does nothing to change that simple fact. Every celtic nation and people has had this problem - it centres upon us because a) we are small; b) we are regarded as a very desirable piece of real estate that (in the minds of the supremacists) is too good for the people it belongs to - us.
This has always been a bee in the bonnet of the Anglo-Saxon right wing - that, no matter what, they will never own these islands.
Posts: 1961
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 22:59
However, I have one or two problems:
Firstly, if a legal basis exists for the Cornish Stannary Parliament, even though it has been usurped by Westminster, why not concentrate on that aspect and legally chasllenge the British state to formally recognise it? I am sure the Stannary are looking at ways to do just that. I am sure, too, that they would welcome the support of all Cornish groups, organisations and people in that aim and it frankly seems strange to me that the Constitutional Convention appears to be oblivious to that very real issue, an issue with which the British state seems to be so scared.
Secondly, why should a devolved Assembly, at some stage in the probably very distant future, take on the responsibility of the Stannary Parliament when the one which we already possess could be doing it soon, after a legal challenge?
Thirdly, why should a Cornish Assembly be more likely to be achieved, bearing in mind the resounding "No" Prescott and his lackeys have given to this appeal. The "No" was even more surprising bearing in mind the 60,000 people who signed the petition. So much for democracy!
My own view is that legal means should be found to challenge the system. I don't think it will be possible to mount an effective challenge in the biased English courts. Any challenge will need to be mounted in one of the European courts in which independence and fairness is guaranteed.
Somebody in Liskeard told me that the Stannary Parliament have had some success in this area. I don't know if it is true but think it could be a very exciting time ahead for us all, bearing in mind the trouble the Stannary has caused to the British state over the years. Perhaps, somebody will enlighten us on this possibility?
Posts: 277
Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 23:36
Eckythump, reet gradley tha knaws. Appen as Lanky's not so well eard.
It damn well does, mate. Not entirely separate, but neither is Kernow's
Not so totally different. The Monarch, as Duke of Lancaster, is operating in a different capacity from her role over England proper.
The territory has been carved up but they aren't in the main disputing it. The Friends of Real Lancashire are, though:
http://www.forl.co.uk/003/index.html
Get out of here! There are Devon this and Devon that, Bedfordshire (ever heard of Bedfordshire Skittles, and Bedfordshire clangers? Completely unique) this and that etc. All sorts of English counties and regions have organisations promoting their own culture.
The Lancashire Red Rose is NOT the Tudor Rose ( which should be banned everywhere). All regional flags (such as the Lancashire Red Rose) represent "minority" populations in the UK - not that most of them are bothered, though.
Fair point regarding Lancashire as such. There is at least Lancaster (Pennsylvania) though. Lancastrian contributions are more related to industrial technology applied across Europe.
OK; (you'll like this, and may be pleasantly surprised)
I'm not trying to be cynical. The situation is that some of the Cornish Nationalist people seem to have embraced all-out Anglophobia, when in fact many of the problems of contemporary Kernow are in fact applicable across the UK, it's just that they peak in kernow. (e.g. House price - income ratio). I'm also fully aware that the National Curriculum seems to omit any British (including Kernewek) or Gaelic involvement in UK history - bad enough for England, let alone the UK. The thing is, if you'd just see it, is that there are common issues here.
I was fortunate - I had a non-Anglocentric education - learnt all about the Celtic church, the Welsh, the Anglo-Saxon kings being essentially warlords (not heroes); and who was the inventor of the first successful steam locomotive? Trevithick! (always described to me as a Cornishman). On top of this my parents took me on holiday all over the UK, including Iona, St Davids (Wales/Cymru) - and Kernow - explaining to me that it had its own Ancient British language and some folk there didn't regard it as part of England.
I'm not at all anti-Kernow and certainly believe that the Cornish should be able to fly the Gwyn ha Du with impunity.
I intend to go after politically the macro-scale issues which disadvantage all of us from the Lizard to the Shetland Islands. This includes the principle of subsidiarity, in respect of regional and local government. It's up to Kernow, though, to make its own mark within this framework. Over to you, MK
Nos da,
Patrick
Posts: 1961
Posted:
30.Jul 2006 - 00:27
Merely a dialect of the language of the majority, English. One that is not included within the Council of Europe's Chater for Regional or Minority Languages.
Cornwall's folklore and traditions are Celtic. Lancashire's folklore, customs and traditions are not. The only English influence is that which has ocurred relatively recently, as in the instance of the portrayal of the saint slaying the dragon at Furry Day. I am afraid you are wrong on that one.
Partially correct. Very easy for the Monarch to fulfill a slightly different role, as Duke, in her realm. However, In Cornwall's case, when there is a duke, she exercises no writ in Cornwall and is required to seek permission from her son, the Duke of Cornwall, before she sets foot in the Duchy. The writ of exchequer, the privileges of foreshore, intestacy, bona vacantia, wrecks, wines and royal fish are exercised in Cornwall alone by the Duke who would be acting illegally if he did the same anywhere else in the UK. A completely different situation altogether and one which is linked directly to Cornwall's undisputed status as independent kingdom in the past. Lancashire has no such claim.
That might be so but....
these people do not claim to be an oppressed minority seeking recognition under the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities. Neither do they claim to be anything other than a "county", presumably of England. In Cornwall's case, some of us are aware that Cornwall existed as a nation/kingdom before England became a reality. That was not the case with Lancashire or any other English county.
Now you get out of here! Devon this? Devon that? What do you mean? I'll bet you'll be telling us that the Bedfordshire clangers follow the traditions of the Welsh, Bretons and Cornish and actively promote the recognisedBedforshire language next! You get out of here!
Didn't say it was the Tudor Rose! However, I must agree with your comments about that detested symbol. What other indigenous ethnic/cultural minority populations are there in the UK that have a recognised minority language associated with their area of residence, apart from Wales, Cornwall and Scotland? Your definition of minority is clearly at odds with the official definitions associated with conventions.
Is it any wonder that some Cornish nationalists have strong feelings against the English? It was the English, afterall, that ethnically cleansed them to the point that their language nearly died out. It is the English majority parliament/government that has denied them their history, their language, their constitutional status, along with the associated rights s and privileges. It is the English Duchy of Cornwall that has sucked the life-blood from its veins to the point that it is now reliant upon European handouts. It is English nationalists/supremacists that are trying to impose their will, even on this Cornish forum, in attempts to denude the Cornish of their status as a minority of the UK, etc, etc. Is it any wonder that some Cornish people feel this way?
Posts: 2305
Posted:
30.Jul 2006 - 00:54
Not when you hear the rhetoric here, "full of sound and fury.." as Shakespear has it..
And I quote..
Please, when was Cornwall "ethnically cleansed"?
Meaningless. unless you are able to qualify it, it remains "full of sound and fury.."
Yet the nationalists here all want the status of Dutchy to remain, and cite it as the reason for the independence of Cornwall, cognitive dissonance or what?
"Full of sound and fury.."
Posts: 277
Posted:
30.Jul 2006 - 01:22
I'll give a response tomorrow (maybe...)
Nos da (again),
Patrick
Posts: 1961
Posted:
30.Jul 2006 - 01:23
You are presumably referring to your English nationalist/supremacist friends as they seem to be the ones who peddle in rhetoric.
After 1549. Plenty of text book references, most of which are posted on this site, which testify to the slaughter that ocurred at this time. Up to 50% of the population was butchered or died of starvation following the ravishings of one murdering bastard by the name of Sir Anthony Kingston.
The process continues to this very day - not by slaughter and murder - but simply by denying, as you constantly seems to do, the Cornish the right to their non-English, Celtic identity and their right to be an indigenous national minority of the UK, along with the associated benefits.
That, my friend, is a statement of fact. English behaviour, political, miltary and judicial in this regard is on the record. It is not the Scottish, or the Welsh, or anyone else apart from the English overlords which have led to this situation. The English are the majority afterall and up until recently have done as they wished. Actually, they can't do that anymore now that their parliament is no longer supreme.
Actually, it's spelt, "Duchy" now. Some of us do simply because its very existence shows up the mess in which the English legal system is buried. Now that sovereignty of the English dominated Westminster parliament has been handed over to the European institutions which are very much more tuned into human rights and equality before the law, Cornish "nationalists", as you describe them will be able to pursue legal actions in those courts, rather than in the biased, festering cess-pit English ones.
One day, Cornish patriots will send HRH packing and then we shall see what happens!
So you are a hypocrit? Where is the substance to this assertion? Your record on this forum sums it up
Posts: 2305
Posted:
30.Jul 2006 - 03:25
Nope, empty rhetoric is practiced by those who claim Cornwall was "ethnically cleansed" but cannot back it up.....
Wrong again.
4000, were killed in the prayer book rebellion, let's not forget a proportion of those were from Devon. "The rebels were largely farmers armed with little more than pitchforks and the mercenary arquebusiers killed over a thousand rebels at Crediton, then murdered 900 unarmed people at Clyst St Mary. 1,300 were slaughtered at Sampford Courtenay and 300 died at Fenny Bridges.")
The Cornish speaking population (according to Ken George) was around 39,000.
I think your maths needs working on...
Oh dear, we have another fantasist on our hands, or rather the cowardly return of an old favourite under a new "sock puppet" name. (How come he knows s-o-o-o-o much about me after just 23 posts?)
So then Mr Hunlef, can you point out to me where I have denied the Cornish their; "non-English, Celtic identity and their right to be an indigenous national minority of the UK, along with the associated benefits."
Of course I recognise that this will be point where you play the Cornish nationalist "get out of jail free" card; "everybody knows you do" "it's all over the forum" "you've done it loads of times" "I am a Cornish Nationalist, I don't need to prove what I say"...
Really, when did the Scots and Welsh stop voting in the British elections?
LOL!!
Bugger, I must stop doing that, my apologies to all...
Ermm..can anyone translate this for me?
Then you'll no longer be a Duchy, and one of the main thrusts of the devolution debate will be gone...
Well you made the lunatic assertion, not me, so what's your point..
That comment reveals you to be someone returned as a sock puppet, do we get a prize if we guess who?
Posts: 1961
Posted:
30.Jul 2006 - 10:33
Topic already dealt with on this forum ad nauseum.
"A proportion of those were from Devon" - How many? Does Ken George tell you this?
10% of the male, working population were butchered. Families were consequently left without breadwinners - women, children and elderly people died of starvation. It is estimated that 50% of the Cornish population were wiped out. Is that in Ken George's writings?
I know so much about you because I have read many of your postings on this forum. I don't know who you are and have no wish to get to know you. However, it intrigues me why people like you spend so much time on forums such as this when you clearly have so much antipathy towards the Cornish minority. Of course, you claim to require proof and substance but only in regard to those of us who are Cornish "nationalists" in your opinion and, unfortunately, you never apply such strict requirements to your own submissions. I am afraid that mere assertions such as, "wrong", "Cornish Nationalist get out of jail free card" simply are not good enough. It is you who need to look at the quality of your own material. But don't worry mee 'andsome, I am sure that most Cornish people on this forum couldn't give a rat's arse about your drivel. Keep it coming, pard, cos it gives us all a great opportunity to shoot you down!
You may laugh, mee andsome, but your parliament handed sovereignty to Europe a few years ago. Oops! I nearly forgot to adduce the substance. Let me see.....here it is! The Factor Tame case.
Read it again, it's perfectly understandable. Usual English/Brit nationalist response to something they find unpalatable.
But we most certainly will not be part of England and the legal posion will revert to the Common Law and Law of Custom. The Cornish parliament, being part of customary law (which is, as you will know, of overriding significance). So, there is something for you to get your nationalist nut around! I can't wait for you to bite on that one!
I referred to an earlier assertion by you - trying to be too clever is no good for you - it makes you look stupid. Read the posting - get the point.
Talking in riddles, I don't understand your point.
Posts: 205
Posted:
30.Jul 2006 - 11:15
News of this has also reached a Breton newspaper as under:
CORNISH FURY OVER FLAG BAN
CORNISH FURY OVER FLAG BAN
Cornish nationalists are incensed at a ruling that those wishing to fly the Cornish National Flag (St. Piran's Cross) need 'official permission' under planning regulations and if successful will have to pay a hefty £75 fee.
Michael XXXXX has pledged to campaign against this absurdity and has defiantly promised that his National flag will remain flying without permission or fees.
Nationalists within Cornwall are already promising support to confront this planning permission absurdity and those in the other Celtic countries wishing to indicate their support should contact Cornish organisations.
The Cornish flag issue is reminiscent of a similar struggle in Mannin over twenty years ago to ensure that Mann's National Flag was flown and the Union flag binned. That battle was less to do with planning and more a consequence of a 'west Brit' mentality which as recent manifestations of the St. George's Cross show is still prevalent.
Posts: 1961
Posted:
30.Jul 2006 - 11:23
BTW, I've told my local authority that I, too, wish to be prosecuted under the Town and Country Planning Act.
Unfortunately, in my case, this authority does not appear to have the stomach for a fight in the courts. However, I am looking at ways in which they could be tempted to take enforcement action, provided, of course, that "it is expedient to do so".
Posts: 206
Posted:
30.Jul 2006 - 11:49
PLANNING TO FLY A FLAG? BETTER GET PERMISSION 11:00 - 26 July 2006 - Thousands of patriotic Cornishmen were facing the renewed threat of investigation by council planning inspectors last night - after the Government confirmed that planning permission is needed to fly the flag of St Piran.
Guidance issued by the Planning Minister Yvette Cooper yesterday included a slight relaxation of the controversial rules governing the flying of flags. But although the EU flag, the United Nations flag and the Commonwealth flag have been added to the list of "national" flags that can be flown without permission, the famous Cornish emblem has not.
The decision means that thousands of Cornish households flying the distinctive black and white flag of St Piran without planning permission could face enforcement action and fines.
&q