Topic: Whats the Cornish (any variant) For:
Nosdan
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Posts: 1193

Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 10:21

Trying to make an interactive map again, but cant find a cornish equivilent for these places!

Wadebridge.
Callington.
Tresillian. (- Tresulyan?)

And Could i confirm the names of the Isles of Scilly,

St.Marys - Ennor.
Tresco - Ynys Skaw.
Brhyer - Breyer.
St. Agnas - Aganas.
St. Martins - Brithek.

Thank you...


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Palores

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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 10:42

NosdanWadebridge. Callington. Tresillian.

Those in common use are Ponsrys, Kelliwik, Tresulyen.
Nosdan
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 12:41

meur ras.

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Eddie-C
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 12:47

Craig Wetherhill, and Nicholas Williams 2006 each give Wâd (Wadebridge), Calweton (Callington), Trê Sülyen (Tresillian).

Weatherhill is a noted toponymologist, and is author of Cornish Place Names & Language, one of the best-selling factual books ever published about Cornwall. First released in 1995, it's due for republishing in a second revised edition (and may have actually appeared by now, for all I know).

When the Kesva produced Place-Names in Corwall, Henwyn-Tyllerow yn Kernow, by K George, P Hodge, J Holmes & G Sandercock (1996), Weatherhill wrote a detailed critique of the scholarship the authors had used. In his 29-page review, entitled The Best Cornish Form of Cornish Place Names he argues convincingly that this scholarship was inadequate, superficial and unprofessional.

Unsurprisingly perhaps, given Kemyn's oft-stated disregard for historically attested orthographical forms, the KK authors appear to have been much more concerned with forcing traditional place names into the strait-jacket of KK orthographic dogma, rather than being true to the living history embodied in these ancient artefacts. This procrustean arrogance is precisely what produced abortions like the notorious KK *Kammbronn. Moreover, Weatherhill argues, many of their derivations are unsupported by (or often totally ignore) the available historical evidence, and are thus (in my words) little better than 'Just So' fables or folk etymologies.

His critique is well worth reading even if, as with me, toponyms are not a main hobby for you. The arguments he gives are lucid, cogent and compelling, though that will doubtless upset many who favour KK's conlang approach to distorting the map of Cornwall. Here's what he has to say about 2 of the place names:

QuoteCALLINGTON (KK: Kelliwik):
The CLB claims, in its introduction to this booklet, that its work is based upon that of Dr O.J. Padel. Clearly, in this case, it has not done so and has preferred to perpetuate a common but modern myth. Padel and others have conclusively shown that Callington is not the Kelliwic of the Mabinogion, nor the C9 estate of Caellwic and can never have been derived from either of those names. Callington is purely OE, calwan + tun, “farm in the Calu (a district name meaning “bare hill”)”. All its earliest known forms, from 1086 to 1285, consistently support this OE derivation.

WADEBRIDGE (KK: Ponsrys):
if it is necessary in the first place to Cornicise this Eng. name, it is worth considering that the original was simply OE waed, “ford” (Wade 1312-1484), Middle Eng. brigge only being added in the late C15 after the bridge was built.


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Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
goky
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 13:19

His book has been republished apparently (2007) I saw it at Truro books, so those interested in this sort of thing can buy and read it, and make their own opinion, instead of reading the continuing clap trap of the Climowackys ,and the rest of the gang, who seem to have been permantly un-hinged by the advent of the 'conlang' Kemmyn.

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Eddie-C
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 14:47

Gromercy dhys, A Wokiwanky whek whethlus, rak an deryvadow-na -- hag an gormola bras ynweth, hep mar!

Ha ny ow kewsel, pyth an jawl yu'n foto hager-na? Ombortrayans fekyl dha honen? Cor a Myghtern an Bysewow? Gollum y honen, martesen?



edited by: Eddie-C, Nov 25, 2007 - 11:30 PM

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KS: selven an Furf Screfys Savonek? -- Ya, hep wow!

Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
Nosdan
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 15:01

Quoteif it is necessary in the first place to Cornicise this Eng. name, it is worth considering that the original was simply OE waed, “ford” (Wade 1312-1484), Middle Eng. brigge only being added in the late C15 after the bridge was built.




Now i wouldn't dream of arguing with Mr Wetherhill he is indeed one of the best toponymologists, if not the best Cornish one...

However, As I am producing a map, I want Cornicised placenames rather than just English ones. Ponsrys makes sense to me... IT was
Quotewaed, “ford”
so that translates as Rys... Then they added bridge, which is Pons.

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Fulub-le-Breton
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 16:04

What’s the Cornish for:

Be it as it may, tomorrow at ten I will have been dancing for 3 days.

and

My hovercraft is full of eels.

?

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The Breton Connection
Palores

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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 16:21

Fulub-le-BretonMy hovercraft is full of eels.

Ow jynn-bargesi yw leun a sylli.
goky
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 16:30

Eh Climowacky whegol, ma fotograf hager goz ownackees ? agoz foto, pema e ?

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Nosdan
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 16:54

http://uk.geocities.com/cornish_man@btinternet.com/MapKernow.dcr

Check this out for more debatable place names. I'll add sound as soon as everyone's happy(ish)

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marhak
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 20:12

No, those in invented use are Ponsrys and Kelliwik (although Tresulyen is good). Wadebridge never had a Cornish name to anyone's knowledge, and was originally simply Wade (OE waed, "ford") before the bridge was built.

Kelliwik, for Callington, only came about because someone suggested it as a site for the Arthurian fortress of Kelly Wig (Mabinogion) without any foundation whatsoever and, therefore, the use of "Kelliwic" for Callington is absurd and should be kicked straight into touch. The name was Calwetona in 1080,English and has always been so (meaning "farm/settlement at the Calu ["bare hill"]. Neither Wadebridge nor Callington have Cornish names as far as anyone knows and to translate them so invents, distorts and manipulates history.
Mike
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 21:25

Translating English place names into Cornish is a difficult one and could be argued OK as long as specified eg. Aberfal, Aberplymm.

However, we have enough Cornish names to be proud of as it is and performing these translations is a bit like re-writing history, something that we've suffered massively from.

I would go as far as to say previously Cornish names that have been Anglicised should most definitely have dual signs eg. Heyl, Hellys, Lanstefan. But wholely English ones like Wadebridge and Callington should be left alone.

There are enough Celtic fakers around and it should not be encouraged.
goky
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 21:33

Translating place names outside of Cornwall is plain dumb, why is Plymouth 'Aberplym' or 'Plymoth', or 'New York' "Evrok Noweth' and so on.

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Nosdan
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 21:38

Ok I take your point(s) however, If people can translate Falmouth - into Aberfal then i see no harm in translating Wadebridge into Ponsrys... Taking this on board I shall point out in my final map version that some forms are just translations and not historical forms.

I like to look at my map project as, making a map for a Cornish monoglot. So perhaps I will make a note of where the English names comes from and suggesting an alternative Cornish form?

I do not want to skew history, purely provide a Cornish (language) map.

Please If you have suggestions I want to hear them.

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Nosdan
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 21:43

QuoteTranslating place names outside of Cornwall is plain dumb, why is Plymouth 'Aberplym' or 'Plymoth', or 'New York' "Evrok Noweth' and so on.



Hmm, maybe the same reason French has Londres in French or Peking in English.

I think it happens in every language.

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goky
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Posted:
25.Nov 2007 - 22:14

Yes but is rare, and is not necessary for a revived language unless attested previously such as 'Londres' or 'Keresk'., and anyway we use Beijing now,I agree that languages that use other writing systems have to transcribed.

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Eddie-C
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Posted:
26.Nov 2007 - 00:30

In both Welsh and Scots Gaelic, what seems to happen with foreign place names is something like this in ordinary usage:
-- if there's an historically attested name, feel free to use it. This will more often occur with well-known foreign countries, cities and so on.
-- if the name is entirely in a foreign language, don't translate it. 'Dar es Salaam' doesn't get turned into 'Abode of Peace' in your own language, because no-one will have the foggiest what you're talking about.
-- if the name has some common words in a familiar language like English, those can be translated fairly freely.
-- if it's in a foreign script, transcribe it (except in academic writing, perhaps). If there's a standard way of using our Roman alphabet for transcription from a particular language, use it. Thus, Japanese has a 'Romanji' convention for doing this, and I'd be inclined to use Romanji in Cornish, even where it goes against our orthographic conventions.

Thus, if you were writing something about America, 'Evrok Noweth' would probably be translated, as the name for our city of York is, I presume, historical and fairly widely known in Cornish, and the 2nd half is an ordinary English word. The 'Rio Grande' would be left unchanged rather than becoming the unrecognisable *Avon Vras.

Likewise, I'd write 'Los Angeles' rather than *An Eleth, but An Avon Rudh instead of The Red River, and An Avon Mississippi (with no translation from the Native American of the 2nd word).

Of course, this is a question of choosing a suitable style of writing, rather than of hard and fast rules. It's up to the individual writer to decide what's suitable for his or her own writing, and in creative writing you might choose to disregard normal practice in order to get dramatic effect.

For instance, if you were writing about the city of Philadelphia, you might discover that in reality some of its inhabitants use an English translation of the city's name from Greek as an informal nickname. So it should be OK to translate that in turn into Cornish, if you wished: Cyta Kerensa Broder, or some such (as long as you have the original name in there as well).

We see something similar with Latin astronomical names as well sometimes. The Mare Tranquilitatem on the Moon is sometime referred to as The Sea of Tranquility (>K. 'Mor Cosoleth' ?). I could imagine a CornishSciFi novel set on Mars (Merth) having action occurring at 'Meneth Olympus' rather than at the official, Latin 'Olympus Mons'.

Of course, foreign names might sometimes be suitably translated for adding colour to your writing. New Mexico has a mountain range called 'Sangre de Cristo' which would sound more vivid as 'Menedhyow Gos Cryst', I imagine.



edited by: Eddie-C, Nov 26, 2007 - 12:37 AM

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KS: selven an Furf Screfys Savonek? -- Ya, hep wow!

Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
Laghyades
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Posts: 238

Posted:
26.Nov 2007 - 07:25

"My hovercraft is full of eels."

There much call for that phrase over your way, Fulub ?

Laghyades

Gonisogeth. Ertach.
Gyllys, gyllys glan.
Hemm yw an fordh a draow.
Dons. Ons.
Ha dehwelons.
Pan awen kov koth aga fleghes.
Eddie-C
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Posts: 1189

Posted:
26.Nov 2007 - 07:49

Nosdan. . . I do not want to skew history, purely provide a Cornish (language) map.

Please If you have suggestions I want to hear them.
A few small thoughts for you:

-- As the SWF (whatever it turns out to be) will be the standard for the entire school population of Cornwall, it might be worth structuring your project so as to make it as easy as possible to revise the spellings of your place names.

-- consider doing a second plain-graphic version of the map, without all the Javascript functions.

-- the graphic for your map is excellent, but I'm not too keen on only seeing 1 place name at a time. It might be better to program a different scheme into your Javascript, something like this, perhaps:

WHOLE KERNOW VIEW: just show the names of all the main areas on shore and at sea.

1st ZOOM IN: show all the bigger towns, cities, rivers, bays, hills etc.

2nd ZOOM IN: show smaller ones . . . and so on.

At any zoom level, use something like the "mouseover=" function to give a pop-up of further information about any feature the user pauses the mouse over, such as population, alternative or English versions of name, height of hill or whatever. This puts more information into the map, but on another layer where it won't clutter up the general view of things.

Chons da dhys gans an tybyans bryntyn-ma!

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KS: selven an Furf Screfys Savonek? -- Ya, hep wow!

Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
Nosdan
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Posts: 1193

Posted:
26.Nov 2007 - 09:57

Thank you for ideas:

Quotemake it as easy as possible to revise the spellings of your place names.


All in hand.

Quoteconsider doing a second plain-graphic version of the map


Will do, when i have time, Just wanted to get a version out to get feed back.

QuoteI'm not too keen on only seeing 1 place name at a time


Agreed, I think some useability issue to be sorted.

I was considering infomation boxes for each place, and im sure when i have time i'll get round to it. I like your idea about putting the names of areas on the 3map and the seas.

Please if anyone else has any comments/ suggestions post'em to this thread http://www.corn...pic-2914.htm

It makes my life easier if you would like to change stuff now... Then hopefully we can have a decent Cornish Map!!!


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