Topic:	Translation
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 28.Dec 2007 - 00:55	Please, will someone tell me the meaning of "An" in the title "An Gegin Boeth"? I recognize the "warm kitchen". Is "an" "the"? In case you think someone who recognizes "gegin boeth" should know "an", I'll explain that those two words are also Welsh. "An" is not. I am only suspecting it is "the". Thank you very much. Hazel
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 28.Dec 2007 - 01:36	An = 'the' it mutates the K in Kegin to G. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
Eddie-C Posts: 617 Posted: 28.Dec 2007 - 09:13	That's how it would be spelt in the Kernewek Kemyn orthography, and coming at it from Welsh, that could mislead you as to the pronunciation of KK 'poeth'. In Unified Cornish, it would be 'An Gegyn Both', and in the dictionaries the last word would have a macron accent over it to show that it's a long /-o-/ (more or less rhyming with the English word 'both') - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KS y'n Udn Form Screfys? -- Hep wow! Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 28.Dec 2007 - 10:27	But Kernewek Kemmyn, is the form you are most likely to come accross, the other forms have a very small output of publications compared to Kernewek Kemmyn. Of course that may change as the politicians seem to have produced a hybrid language, language control (design) at it's most extreme. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
Eddie-C Posts: 617 Posted: 28.Dec 2007 - 11:17	Goky, Every statement in your last post is untrue. In fact, your grasp on truth is as flawed as your understanding of Cornish and its grammar. For instance, you seem to imagine that the correct translation of Goky's Blog is An Blog Goky -- your exact wording is "An Blog Goky-Goky's blog in Kernuack"* (also revealing, incidentally, your ignorance of proper punctuation). The word Goky is evidently being used as a proper noun because (a) it has an initial capital, and (b) it is the (surprisingly accurate) pseudonym you've chosen to adopt on C24. Because it's a proper noun, it already contains the concept of definiteness, and therefore the definited article you've used is a mistake. In fact, it's a common beginner's mistake for L1 English speakers, and one that's been extensively discussed on this very forum not long ago. You should have written 'Blog Goky' instead, just as one should write Blog Micheal rather than An Blog Micheal. Even ?Blog an Goky might almost be justifiable, if one were to argue that Goky is a title rather than a proper noun. The same rule applies in each of the Celtic languages, and as HazelM seems to know Welsh, she might like to consider how incorrect your wording would sound in that language (Y Blog Goky, Y Blog Micheal). As you have in the past claimed some level of competence in both Gaelic and Cumbrian, it's puzzling how you seem quite ignorant of this basic point of Celtic grammar. edited by: Eddie-C, Dec 28, 2007 - 11:19 AM - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KS y'n Udn Form Screfys? -- Hep wow! Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
marhak Posts: 2541 Posted: 28.Dec 2007 - 13:38	I wonder why Steve thinks that there have been more publications in Kemmyn than by others?
Eddie-C Posts: 617 Posted: 28.Dec 2007 - 14:01	Gwalgh a wokyneth, martesen? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KS y'n Udn Form Screfys? -- Hep wow! Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
pietercharles Posts: 253 Posted: 28.Dec 2007 - 16:31	marhakI wonder why Steve thinks that there have been more publications in Kemmyn than by others? It wouldn't surprise me if he hasn't been swayed by the clear evidence of the list in the Cornish Wikipedia, here: http://kw.wikip...enn_Kernewek The list is incomplete for all orthographies, despite people being encouraged to update it, but even so publications in Kemmyn clearly outnumber those of others. The other orthographies, apart from Unified, account for next to nothing in the list. And even then, many, possibly most, of the Unified items have not been available since the middle of the last century, although they can occasionally be found in second-hand bookshops under piles of pamphlets extolling the delights of Newquay and Carlyon Bay. Plus, of course, we mustn't forget that about 200 pages of Kemmyn have been published every year for nearly 20 years in the monthly magazine An Gannas. By the way, Hazel, 'An Gegin Boeth' is more 'The Hot Kitchen' than 'The Warm Kitchen' which would be 'An Gegin Doemm'. That's as spelt in the Kernewek Kemmyn orthography. In case there's any danger of you being misled again, that would be 'An Gegyn Dom' in Unified Cornish, and in the dictionaries the last word would not have a macron accent over it, to show that it's not a long /-o-/. This business about accents needn't bother you, though - at this very moment the group defining the next orthography for Cornish is purging them from the language (much to the relief of just about everybody).
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 28.Dec 2007 - 19:32	Maybe I am wrong, but maybe it depends on availability, the Kesva has approx. 90 publicatations listed for sale,KDL also has a few. UCR has a handfull. so does LC, as for Unified you could probably find a few at Truro books, but the rest must be in someone's cellar. Unless someone is willing to troll all the bookstores in Cornwall, KK is what they will find. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 28.Dec 2007 - 19:48	QuoteThis business about accents needn't bother you, though - at this very moment the group defining the next orthography for Cornish is purging them from the language (much to the relief of just about everybody). There goes someone's dream of providing us all with special Cornish fonts for our computers. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
TheElvenLord Posts: 799 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 16:32	IS Blog feminine? Just wondering, in which case it's An vlog goky? TEL Everything is impossible until it is not.
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 16:49	If it is a borrowed word from English or wherever, I am assuming it is masculine. If it was Feminine it would ba An Vlog Woky. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
morvyl Posts: 388 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 19:01	Whether masculine or feminine, it's still used without the article. I assume KK would have to spell <blogg> in order to show that the vowel is short. So in KK "Goky's blog" would be: <blogg Gokki>, while in Gendall's spelling it would be <blog Guki>. In UCR <blog Gocky> and in UC <blog Gokky>. IN KS we would have <blog Gocky>, the same as in KD. What the SWF would have, I do not know yet, but I'm sure we'll find out soon. edited by: morvyl, Dec 29, 2007 - 07:03 PM
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 19:05	Why would there be no article then it would be ' 'a blog of Goky' instead of 'the blog' or cannot we distinguish in Cornish.? Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
morvyl Posts: 388 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 19:06	Above you also write **An Ladhva Kernewek, I assume you wish to say "the murder of Cornish". That would be <ladhva an Kernewek> or simply <ladhva Kernewek>. This would be Cornish, no matter how you spell it. What you said isn't in the correct Cornish grammar.
morvyl Posts: 388 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 19:11	You are using "Goky" as a name. That makes it definite already. All the Celtic languages work like that, so does Cornish. It's like "Chy Jowan" is "John's house", or "the house of John". An chy Jowan is as ungrammatical in Cornish as house of the John would be in English.
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 19:11	I dear made a mistake is teacher going to spank me now. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
morvyl Posts: 388 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 19:30	No, but it helps you in the long run to learn from mistakes. The possessive construction of the Celtic languages appears to be particularly difficult to grasp for learners, especially those with English as their first language. So, no shame, no spanking. Just useful information given out for free.
Eddie-C Posts: 617 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 19:54	In Welsh, I found the easiest way to remember how NOT to do it was with a totally incorrect translation of the phrase, the head of the man, which in Cornish would come out as an pen an den. When you learn to cringe at the mere thought of that phrase, you're on the right track, I found! And you'll fairly naturally gravitate towards the correct phrases: pen an den* -- definite form pen den -- indefinite form - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KS y'n Udn Form Screfys? -- Hep wow! Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
morvyl Posts: 388 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 21:15	Yes. <pedn an den> "the man's head" <pedn den> "a man's head"
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 21:23	edited by: goky, Dec 29, 2007 - 09:25 PM Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
marhak Posts: 2541 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 21:26	That's disappointed him, Morvyl - he might be into spanking. edited by: marhak, Dec 29, 2007 - 08:27 PM
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 29.Dec 2007 - 21:49	Don't give me ideas. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
Nothlenn Posts: 221 Posted: 30.Dec 2007 - 02:28	What about these? I think I can handle them just about but am I presuming? The door of a man's house = an daras a ji den A door of a man's house = daras a ji den The door of the man's house = an daras a ji an den A door of the man's house = daras a ji an den These - not as simple as they seem - I would like you to discuss (some idea of the context is given in bracket): The danger of war (strikes fear into one's heart) = A danger of war (is that young men die needlessly) = The danger of the war (was that other nations might become involved) = The danger of a war (is not often understood until afterwards) =
morvyl Posts: 388 Posted: 30.Dec 2007 - 10:12	I would say: "The door of a man's house" = <daras chy den> "The door of the man's house" = <daras chy an den>
Eddie-C Posts: 617 Posted: 30.Dec 2007 - 13:40	Nothlenn whek, several thoughts come to mind about your interesting examples. (1) I wouldn't have used the preposition 'a'. 'darras a jy' would mean something like 'a door from a house' and might be found in a sentence like, 'Y-brenys darras coth a jy dyswrys' (I bought an old door (that had come) from a demolished house'. In your sentences, there's a true genitive relation between the two objects, so 'darras chy' would be right. (2) The indefinite article 'un' is used to denote 'one, a certain, a particular'. (3) Possession can be expressed in K. by either 'gans' or 'dhe'. I'm not sure, but it might be possible to use something like '?darras dhe'n den' for 'a door of the man's'. (NJAW in his dictionary gives 'a son of mine' as 'mab dhym'). (4) In what follows, I've put 'the/a' together in places because, apart from the obvious syntactic differences between the two languages, I don't think Cornish has quite the same idiom for definiteness-indefiniteness as English does. Contrast the following 4 pairs, where only 1 is the same in both languages: I'm going (to bed / to town / home / indoors) --> my a-vyn mos (dhe'n gwely / dhe'n dre / tre / y'n chy) With these points in mind, I'd translate your 'house' phrases like this: -- darras chy den: a door of a man's house -- darras chy an den: a door of a house of the man; a door of the man's house; the man's house-door --?? darras an chy dhe'n den: a door of the house belonging to the man -- darras a jy an den: (the burglar stole) a door from the man's house -- an darras a jy an den: (the burglar stole) the door from the man's house And how about: -- ? darras an chy den: this would suggest to me some sort of 'house for men', where 'den' plays an adjectival role to 'chy'. Let's consider this pair to illustrate the idea: -- pen an ky deves: the/a head of the sheep-dog -- pen ky an deves: the/a head of the dog who belongs to the sheep As for the 'war' phrases: -- peryl bresel: the/a danger of (any) war -- un peryl bresel: a (certain) danger of war -- peryl an vresel: the/a danger of the war; the danger of war -- peryl un vresel: the danger of a single war (as opposed to 2 wars); the danger of a certain/particular war - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KS y'n Udn Form Screfys? -- Hep wow! Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
Branvras Posts: 273 Posted: 30.Dec 2007 - 17:30	morvylI would say: "The door of a man's house" = <daras chy den> "The door of the man's house" = <daras chy an den> So would I. And for the examples with 'a door': NothlennA door of a man's house = daras a ji den A door of the man's house = daras a ji an den I would say the same as Nothlenn. With regards to Eddie-C's suggestions: Eddie-C-- darras chy den: a door of a man's house -- darras chy an den: a door of a house of the man; a door of the man's house; the man's house-door --?? darras an chy dhe'n den: a door of the house belonging to the man In all these cases 'darras' is defined by 'chy den', 'chy an den' or 'an chy' and can only, in my mind, be 'the door' - either the only door, or the one we've just been talking about. I'm uncomfortable with the use of 'dhe' in the last example. I've heard 'ev yw koweth dhymm', 'yw hi kares dhodho?' and on that basis 'mab dhymm' sounds OK. But with nouns I think we only ever use the long form of 'bos' as in 'yma ki dhe Wella', 'yth esa koweth dhe Vorwenna'. I think we would (always?) say 'ottomma ki Wella' and not 'ottomma an ki dhe Wella'. Doesn't the latter sound odd to everyone (the imminent arrival of pages of textual evidence in support of it notwithstanding!)? Eddie-C-- darras a jy an den: (the burglar stole) a door from the man's house -- an darras a jy an den: (the burglar stole) the door from the man's house I think I'd use 'dhiworth' in these examples, although 'a' is OK. And then there's Nothlenn's dangers of war. NothlennThe danger of war (strikes fear into one's heart) = I don't think this one is genitive at all. I think it is English shorthand for 'the danger that there might be a war', 'the likelihood of war breaking out'. Nothlenn A danger of war (is that young men die needlessly) = The danger of the war (was that other nations might become involved) = The danger of a war (is not often understood until afterwards) = I think these are genitive. In the first I would probably use 'unn' but whether I did or didn't, I think I'd follow 'peryll' by 'a' to keep it indefinite - 'unn peryll a vresel' or 'peryll a vresel'. I prefer the one with 'unn'. The second and third are straightforward for me - 'peryll an vresel' and 'peryll bresel'. Discuss. The answers to these questions account for 75% of the total marks for this assignment.
Nothlenn Posts: 221 Posted: 30.Dec 2007 - 22:51	My difficulty comes from recognising these instances: According to Wella Brown at least (§57), ‘The preposition a ‘from, of’ (§126) can be used to express several of the relationships described above thus allowing the first noun to be left either undefined or defined in some way.’ This is very important if we want to be precise in our treatment of ‘a’ and ‘the’. Using my own examples which might not be the best examples, The danger of war (strikes fear into one's heart) = peryll bresel A danger of war (is that young men die needlessly) = (unn) peryll a vresell The danger of the war (was that other nations might become involved) = peryll an vresell or an peryll a'n vresell The danger of a war (is not often understood until afterwards) = an peryll a vresell QuoteMorvyl: I would say: "The door of a man's house" = <daras chy den> "The door of the man's house" = <daras chy an den> So would I, but I am asking if perhaps there might be times when my The door of a man's house = an daras a ji den A door of a man's house = daras a ji den might be equally correct.
Bardh Posts: 838 Posted: 31.Dec 2007 - 00:08	HazelMPlease, will someone tell me the meaning of "An" in the title "An Gegin Boeth"? I recognize the "warm kitchen". Is "an" "the"? In case you think someone who recognizes "gegin boeth" should know "an", I'll explain that those two words are also Welsh. "An" is not. I am only suspecting it is "the". Thank you very much. Hazel Hazel, you seem to be quoting the title of a poem sequence in Pan dheuth an glaw. Are you, too, a fan of Tony Snell's? edited by: Bardh, Dec 31, 2007 - 12:09 AM
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 02:07	Thank you for answer. I suspected it was "the" but always best to be sure. Also, would the webmaster, or someone, please tell me why I never receive notice of replies despite checking the box to receive them. I must be doing something wrong - a special gift of mine. Thank you again.
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 02:44	P. S. Well, this computer illiterate finally fooled around long enough to learn that I never changed my e-mail address when I moved a year ago. I surely thought I had done that. Now I know the answer to my problem of not receiving notifications. Bardh, in answer to your question, there is an article in Barddas magazine, Tachwedd/Rhagfyr 2007 by the editor in which he talks about several Cornish poetry books. He also quotes "Y'n Skiber" and follows it with a Welsh translation. Later, he quotes "An Gegin Boeth" and comments, "a oes angen cyfieithu" (is it needed to translate). Of course, it is not as he shows with the Welsh translation for "The Warm Kitchen". The similarity between the two languages is striking. I would be quite happy to post these little penillion but I am not certain that is legal. Copyright, you know. edited by: HazelM, Jan 03, 2008 - 08:45 PM
KarlT Posts: 60 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 10:13	Hazel - if you're struck by the similarities between Welsh and Cornish, you may be interested in the background to "an" and "y(r)". Both come from the proto-Celtic word Sindos, meaning, approximately, "this". It's a common feature of Indo-European languages to develop definite articles from demonstratives - the same happened with Latin ille* and iste, which gave rise to the definite articles in the modern Romance languages. But I digress. Sindos, in the process of development, lost its final syllable and changed the "s" to an "h" (that's why you have Afon Hafren and we have the river Severn, both from Sabrina). This left hind. The initial 'h' was then lost, leaving "in(d)". You can see that we're now very close to the Cornish "an". But whence the Welsh "y(r)"? Well, Breton gives a clue. It actually has different forms of the article for different phonological environments - an, al and ar. It is probable that it had variable form in the common ancestral form of Cornish, Welsh and Breton. Welsh standardised on the -r form, keeping the vowel as "i", spelling it "y", and then later changing the pronunciation to the modern obscure sound. Cornish standardised on the "-n" form (which is the actual underlying one, from *Sindos), and Breton kept the variable forms. Probably, anyway
Egloshal Posts: 532 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 11:28	Karl... that was one of the most interesting postings I've ever seen on this website... pity there aren't more people like you around who can stun us with amazing information like that. Happy New Year to you. Radyo an Gernewegva
KarlT Posts: 60 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 12:24	I got interested in Cornish because of my interest in British languages generally, and because I found an old Caradar Cornish Simplified (not well named!) in a second-hand bookshop in Wallingford. My copy is filled with pencilled in notes of Welsh cognates and translations. Mind you, a number of the cognates might be cognates because Jenner and Nance nicked them from Breton to fill up gaps. IIRC, the policy was to create a Cornish form if the word existed in both Welsh and Breton. I get obsessed with questions like "why is the definite article so different in Cornish and Welsh" and plug on until I find an answer. Although the languages are noticeably similar, I'm told by Welsh speakers that they can make little or no sense of spoken Cornish, and a knowledge of Middle Welsh and ideally Old Welsh is needed to make headway with the written language. One Welsh speaker told me it was a bit like looking at Dutch or Frisian as an English speaker - you feel like it should make sense to you, but it doesn't quite.
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 12:34	Karl, that is indeed a mignificent education. It is a bit early in the morning here for me to absorb it all but I shall return. You mentioned Breton. A friend recently told me that Breton is even closer to Welsh than Cornish. I've not seen as much Breton; so, cannot say. Nevertheless, I do enjoy knowing the sources of words and I have a great love of languages, period. Diolch yn fawr/Thank you very much. Hazel
KarlT Posts: 60 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 12:54	HazelMKarl, that is indeed a mignificent education. It is a bit early in the morning here for me to absorb it all but I shall return. You mentioned Breton. A friend recently told me that Breton is even closer to Welsh than Cornish. I've not seen as much Breton; so, cannot say. Nevertheless, I do enjoy knowing the sources of words and I have a great love of languages, period. Diolch yn fawr/Thank you very much. Hazel Not quite. Breton is closer to Cornish than Welsh is. If Cornish and Breton are brothers, Welsh is a cousin. By comparison, Irish would be a fourth cousin once removed. Theoretically, Breton and Cornish are both equally different from Welsh. In reality, Cornish and Welsh are probably closer to each other than Breton and Welsh. This is because Cornish and Welsh speakers both also speak English, and so can understand English loanwords (which are common in both) even if the same word isn't borrowed in their own language (e.g. you'll understand 'Wolcum' for 'Croeso' because you know the English word "Welcome"). Breton's loan words come rather more from French. If you know French, then Breton might be easier to understand than if you don't. There are apocryphal tales of Breton onion sellers being understood in South Wales. I take this with a pinch of salt. However, that Bretons were able to quickly learn Welsh I can believe.
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 13:05	KarlT There are apocryphal tales of Breton onion sellers being understood in South Wales. I take this with a pinch of salt. However, that Bretons were able to quickly learn Welsh I can believe. Karl, I shall have to confirm this "not-apocryphal" story. I have a friend who grew up speaking Welsh and he tells of the onion sellers coming to their town. He says he was indeed able to understand them. I take your point about the French connection but first-hand confirmation holds water. edited by: HazelM, Jan 04, 2008 - 07:06 AM
Pokorny Posts: 206 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 13:10	I once read an interesting autobiography in which a former Breton onion seller recalled that he always thought his command of Welsh was rather good - until he realised that Welsh speakers believed that it was Breton. That may be the source of the myth that Welsh speakers can understand spoken Breton easily. They normally can't.
Pokorny Posts: 206 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 13:18	'c'h an da reiñ ur skouer, mar karit. Evit doare e ouzit-hu kembraeg, HazelM, 'keta? Ha kompren 'rit ar pezh a skrivan?
KarlT Posts: 60 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 13:24	HazelM KarlT There are apocryphal tales of Breton onion sellers being understood in South Wales. I take this with a pinch of salt. However, that Bretons were able to quickly learn Welsh I can believe. Karl, I shall have to confirm this "not-apocryphal" story. I have a friend who grew up speaking Welsh and he tells of the onion sellers coming to their town. He says he was indeed able to understand them. I take your point about the French connection but first-hand confirmation holds water.edited by: HazelM, Jan 04, 2008 - 07:06 AM I'm sure they did understand them. Probably because they were speaking Welsh rather than Breton. As I said, it would be easy for a Breton to learn Welsh - much easier than for an English speaker, anyway. I also think it quite likely that a Breton speaker would be able to learn which Breton words and constructions were understood by Welsh speakers and which weren't. Breton as spoken in Brittany is quite different from Welsh. They have had 1500 years of separate development. The real test is to go to some Breton language pages, download the sound files and see whether you can understand them. Text is a bit misleading because you can be thrown by the orthography.
KarlT Posts: 60 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 13:25	PokornyI once read an interesting autobiography in which a former Breton onion seller recalled that he always thought his command of Welsh was rather good - until he realised that Welsh speakers believed that it was Breton. That may be the source of the myth that Welsh speakers can understand spoken Breton easily. They normally can't. That's probably about it. Breton speakers speaking Welsh with a strong Breton accent. Welsh speakers, knowing that Breton was related to Welsh, might well think they were hearing and understanding Breton. It's a bit like confusing a strong Glaswegian accent with actual Scots.
Pokorny Posts: 206 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 13:42	KarlT The real test is to go to some Breton language pages, download the sound files and see whether you can understand them. Text is a bit misleading because you can be thrown by the orthography. Here's a good source for those who want to try it: http://www.kaouenn.net/ A good mix of learners and native speakers of different dialects.
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 14:00	KarlT The real test is to go to some Breton language pages, download the sound files and see whether you can understand them. Text is a bit misleading because you can be thrown by the orthography. Now, I'll agree there but that is true in the language I do know fairly well - Welsh. I can read it quite well, write it fairly well but I cannot understand a thing they say most of the time. Hearing is so different from seeing. Yes?
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 14:04	Pokorny'c'h an da reiñ ur skouer, mar karit. Evit doare e ouzit-hu kembraeg, HazelM, 'keta? Ha kompren 'rit ar pezh a skrivan? Cyfieiththiad, os gwelwch yn dda? Translation, please? Hazel
KarlT Posts: 60 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 14:11	You understand written Welsh because you're familiar with the orthography. You might be thrown by Breton because you're not. To put it another way, Breton and Welsh might look more different than they are (or less) because the orthography is different. For example, you might get misled by words containing "ch", because that doesn't represent the same sound as the Welsh "ch" - which, IIRC, is represented by "c'h" in Breton. Pokorny's post is in Breton. If you can't follow it, it's pretty good evidence that your Welsh knowledge isn't much help in understanding Breton, which is what would be expected. Welsh, Cornish and Breton are not generally considered mutually intelligible at all.
Eddie-C Posts: 617 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 16:06	KarlT. . . Welsh, Cornish and Breton are not generally considered mutually intelligible at all. I can confirm this. Welsh was the first Celtic language I learned, and having reached a fair level of fluency, I could only understand odd words and phrases of Cornish. My brother is fluent in both languages, and he would try carefully selected Cornish on me sometimes (choosing C. words and forms that are closest to Welsh), and I still couldn’t understand most of it, until it was explained to me. My Scots Gaelic was of even less use in understanding Cornish (which is what one would expect, of course). However, since I started systematically studying Cornish, it has been a different story altogether, and my Welsh and Gaelic are usually a great help, although sometimes a hindrance as well, when the languages diverge in how they behave (I still pronounce C. du /doo/ as if it were W. du /dee/ sometimes!). For instance, having mastered mutations in the other 2, it was no strain to get my head round them in Cornish. And the impersonal/passive or subjunctive forms in Cornish --something English monoglots apparently find difficult-- are not a problem when you’ve already got the hang of them in, say, Welsh or French or German (or whatever other language you may have learned beforehand). It’s a similar story with other features lacking in English, like gender, infixed pronouns, a full set of inflected forms of verbs and prepositions, or the use of highly flexible word order to denote shades of emphasis. These were similar to old friends (or foes if you prefer) from Welsh and Gaelic. But despite the help all this gives, it’s still a major undertaking to learn Cornish. You know you’re learning a new language, not merely adapting to a different dialect of one you already know. At least, that’s my experience; and if it weren’t so, there’d be less point in learning Cornish. - - - - - - - - On a change of topic, I found to my surprise that my years of eavesdropping on friends conversing in Cornish had allowed me to passively absorb much more of the language than I realised. I remember one day early on in my Cornish studies when --right out of the blue-- I said out loud, “banallek --that’s a furze bush, and it has a geminated /-ll/ in the middle, just like dalleth, which means ‘to begin’ ”. A quick check in Nance’s dictionary confirmed these two words (neither of which had been in my course book!). They were something someone had told me about, 20 years earlier perhaps, as examples of gemination; I’d never used the words in my life, but somehow, unbeknownst to me, they’d been tattooed on my memory. When Cornish starts to be more widely learned in schools and elsewhere, under the impetus of the SWF, I hope that learners may find the same sort of thing happening to them, from having been exposed to Cornish place-names and other bits and pieces of the language over the years. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KS y'n Udn Form Screfys? -- Hep wow! Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 16:29	Thanks for interesting comments. I have heard the statement that impersonal/passive or subjunctive confuse English monoglots before. I can only think that is when they have not had a good grounding in English grammar as we certainly do have the same in English. We called "impersonal" "passive" but they were the same thing. "Active Voice/Passive Voice". We had that in high school. Subjunctive and Conditional also. Not important. Only commenting because it is not a new topic to me. I've had friends insist they never had this in English. Now, gender, "infixed" pronouns, inflected forms, yes, all new and most confusing at first. Word order is changing in English. Have you noticed? There is more variety to English word order than there used to be. That is good in my estimation. Langauges are such an interesting study. Only one have I ever rebelled from - French. I do not like the sound of it. Also do not like to hear English spoken with a French accent. That is strictly personal and cannot be explained. Hazel
Eddie-C Posts: 617 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 17:04	HazelM Only one have I ever rebelled from - French. I do not like the sound of it. Also do not like to hear English spoken with a French accent. That is strictly personal and cannot be explained. Gwell Gog na Ffrog, efallai! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KS y'n Udn Form Screfys? -- Hep wow! Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 17:21	Eddie-C HazelM Only one have I ever rebelled from - French. I do not like the sound of it. Also do not like to hear English spoken with a French accent. That is strictly personal and cannot be explained. Gwell Gog na Ffrog, efallai! Ie - bob amser. Yes - always.
Egloshal Posts: 532 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 20:29	Now here's an interesting one: Tell me if I am wrong to consider Cornish as the mother language of Breton... even if we are talking very old Cornish... and Cornish and Welsh to be brother/sister languages??? Radyo an Gernewegva
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 20:47	I thought they were all three branches of one language. No? Hmmm? I just looked at a diagram in "Atlas of the Celtic World" by John Haywood. It shows Gallo-Brithonic dividing into Brithonic and Gallic long, long ago. Then, near the end of the BC years, it shows Brithonic dividing into Welsh and Cornish while Gallic becomes Breton. One man's opinion, perhaps? Hazel
morvran Posts: 1027 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 20:58	No that's quite wrong, the Bretons emigrated from SW Britain to get away from the English barbarians. There's apparently no need to assume any Gaulish elements in Breton, although some factions like to see them and I believe it all gets political. In terms of branches Breton is closer to Cornish, but Breton has come under so much French influence since then that this similarity doesn't really count for much by now. Cornish and Welsh have sort of run along parallel lines while Breton has veered off on a different track. Trees can be misleading. In terms of branches Friesian is much closer to English than it is to Dutch, but that hardly counts for anything now.
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 21:06	I know. That thought also crossed my mind. I often wonder about things I read in books. That said (and I am vague on this) wasn't there an earlier settlement in the area of Britain that did speak a form of Gallic? These the later emigrants would have joined and merged their two languages? Hazel
Eddie-C Posts: 617 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 21:22	I'm sure I read somewhere that Brittany was colonised not just from present-day Cornwall, but also from parts further east through Devon and beyond. Did they all speak exactly the same Brythonic language or not? I'd imagine there being a range of dialects through that territory, but I've no idea what evidence there is one way or another. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KS y'n Udn Form Screfys? -- Hep wow! Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
marhak Posts: 2541 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 21:43	The way I've always understood it is that British (Brythonic) Celtic would always have had regional dialects that further developed when Saxon domination from the east and south-east drove physical (i.e.geographical) wedges between them. One dialect became Cumbrian; another Welsh (although they were always hard to tell apart). A south-western dialect eventually evolved into Cornish and, in the later medieval period, this included features like assibilation not found in the others (including Breton). Colonisation of Brittany from the mid 5th century certainly took SW British there but I'd imagine that this also came under Gaulish influence, just as modern day Breton has noticeable French influences (particularly upon aspects of its spelling)and, as some of our colleagues like to say, Cornish orthography was partly influenced by that of the majority language next door. I dare say that Norman-French also had some influence upon Cornish, too (before three misguided Cornishmen went and revived an English language on the verge of extinction!). Such influences are only natural and, while some might despise them, they happened and that is that. There is, by the way, a current theory that the original language of Britain, after the Ice Age and before Celtic developed along the Atlantic coasts of Europe in the Late Mesolithic or Neolithic eras, might have been an early form of Basque. Intriguing, but hard to prove or disprove. edited by: marhak, Jan 04, 2008 - 08:51 PM
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 21:55	I'd have to dig out history books to refresh my memory. There are probably those among you all who can recall. I think there were Gauls who escaped into what became Brittany in their efforts to avoid the Romans. There would be your Gallic. Then, several centuries later, there came the Celts from Britain to join them. Am I far off?
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 22:11	There are a lot of assumptions about who migrated where, who spoke what and when. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 4.Jan 2008 - 22:16	Many think that Basque is one of the original languages of Europe, also that Atlantic Celtic may have Phonecian (Semitic) influence, ie the word order and the use of the possesive and the forms of the prepositions. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
KarlT Posts: 60 Posted: 7.Jan 2008 - 10:54	HazelMI'd have to dig out history books to refresh my memory. There are probably those among you all who can recall. I think there were Gauls who escaped into what became Brittany in their efforts to avoid the Romans. There would be your Gallic. Then, several centuries later, there came the Celts from Britain to join them. Am I far off? Doubtless as a remote region Brittany would have been one of the last outposts of Gaulish, but there is no reason to suppose that Gaulish was still the dominant language there by the time the Brythonic speakers settled there from SW Britain. There are no features of Breton which have been shown to be better explained as Gaulish survivals than as Brythonic imports. So, like the rest of France, Brittany was indeed chock-full of Gauls, but by the end of the Roman period they mainly spoke Latin. Because of the close similarities between Latin and Gaulish, it was particularly easy for Gaulish speakers to learn Latin. And difficult, it is reported, for the Romans to keep written documents from being understood by the Gauls, even when their Latin was rudimentary. Nevertheless, Gregory of Tours reported that there were still Gaulish speakers in the fifth century, which means that quite possibly the dying embers of Gaulish did co-exist with early Breton, which leads to the intriguing possibility that some Gaulish words and features did find their way into Breton. However, no-one's been able to definitely identify them.
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 7.Jan 2008 - 11:01	what evedence is there , that Gaulish was similar to Latin?? Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
KarlT Posts: 60 Posted: 7.Jan 2008 - 11:15	gokywhat evedence is there , that Gaulish was similar to Latin?? The Gaulish inscriptions. The grammar is quite Latinate: Compare these noun paradigms: Nominative tōtā mapos Vocative tōta mape Accusative tōtan, tōten mapon Genitive tōtas mapī Dative tōtai mapūi > mapū Instrumental tōtia mapu With Latin 1st and 2nd Declensions: N. -a -us V. -a -e A. -am -um G. -ae -i D. -a -o A. -a -o (Note Gaulish has an Instrumental whereas Latin has an Ablative; the functions of these overlap somewhat)
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 7.Jan 2008 - 11:19	We still have Greek and Latin words in English, somewhat altered, of course, but still recognizable. Welsh has Latin-source words if I am not mistaken. Why wouldn't Britanny still have Gaulish words a few centuries after the Romans left for their big Fall?
KarlT Posts: 60 Posted: 7.Jan 2008 - 11:27	HazelMWe still have Greek and Latin words in English, somewhat altered, of course, but still recognizable. Welsh has Latin-source words if I am not mistaken. Why wouldn't Britanny still have Gaulish words a few centuries after the Romans left for their big Fall? Perhaps it did. But no-one's positively identified them in Breton, partly because they would probably have been quite similar to existing Brythonic words anyway. There are a few Gaulish loan-words in French, but surprisingly few. It's quite possible, however, that the French counting system has a Celtic sub-stratum, counting in 20s as it does after 60.
goky Posts: 1316 Posted: 7.Jan 2008 - 11:43	Are you sure that is not Latin and people think it is Gaulish, how much Gaulish is there to work on?, if someone looked at English today, they could also make the assumption that it evolved from Latin or French. It must be remembered that Christianity bought many latin words to Welsh rather than the Romans I remember someone saying at one of my classes that the Irish monks spoke Latin not Irish because they wrote in Latin. edited by: goky, Jan 07, 2008 - 11:44 AM Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
KarlT Posts: 60 Posted: 7.Jan 2008 - 12:01	gokyAre you sure that is not Latin and people think it is Gaulish, how much Gaulish is there to work on?, if someone looked at English today, they could also make the assumption that it evolved from Latin or French. It must be remembered that Christianity bought many latin words to Welsh rather than the Romans I remember someone saying at one of my classes that the Irish monks spoke Latin not Irish because they wrote in Latin. edited by: goky, Jan 07, 2008 - 11:44 AM The words are Celtic. The endings are not Latin, they are simply similar to Latin. Moreover, we do have some bilingual inscriptions - Gaulish and Latin. Bottom line is we know Latin. The Gaulish inscriptions are not in Latin. The orthography is not Latin. The vocabulary is not Latin. The grammar is not Latin. But the vocabulary has cognates in insular Celtic and the grammar is similar to Latin. It is Celtic. For example, the word Nemetos, meaning a shrine, is related to the Irish deity Nemhedh. The words in the noun paradigms (which are all attested forms) are not Latin. It was the grammatical endings I was drawing attention to in terms of similarity. The Latin word for a son is filius, and mapos does not have a cognate in Latin. It does, however, in all the modern Celtic languages, including Cornish, in your very own Mebyon Kernow, for example. How many and which loans into Insular Celtic came from the Romans and from the Church is debatable, although I find it hard to imagine that the Church brought in the word for a kitchen; rather more likely the Romans.
Egloshal Posts: 532 Posted: 7.Jan 2008 - 12:32	This will amaze your tits off... http://www.word...cmp/gaul.htm Radyo an Gernewegva
KarlT Posts: 60 Posted: 7.Jan 2008 - 12:56	EgloshalThis will amaze your tits off... http://www.word...cmp/gaul.htm Quite a list, isn't it? Quite a few cognates (both Latin and Insular Celtic) missed out, unfortunately. Would be an interesting task to dig them all out.
HazelM Posts: 54 Posted: 7.Jan 2008 - 13:09	KarlT, I trust you saw my response to the source of the verse? Are you able to find it? Or, do you perhaps already know that pennill? I could PM it, if you want. Hazel