Topic:	Kernow a'gas dynergh
Egloshal Posts: 556 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 11:16	Just to report that after almost ten years without a Cornish language welcome sign to Cornwall on the Tamar Bridge... one went up ten days ago. Photo to follow. Radyo an Gernewegva
goky online Posts: 1635 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 11:19	People may get confused and think they are entering Wales. Blog Gokypyth yw 'Agan Tavas"?, Agan Tavas yw Eddie Climo. Agan Taves Nowyth
P_Trembath Posts: 979 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 11:55	gokyPeople may get confused and think they are entering Wales. No, not enough worried looking sheep around for that Kernow Kensa! Our day will come! "Everyone has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
TheElvenLord Posts: 930 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 16:30	I thought there was one? Or am i thinking of the one on the motorway? Anyway, thats great, which Spelling system is it in? If the AHG get their act together and make a SWF instead of a NSSWF (not so standard written form)/VWF (variable written form) they might have to change the sign, or not! TEL Everything is impossible until it is not.
Mike Posts: 2537 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 16:41	That's the one at Dunheved Bridge, Launceston, you are thinking of. I think it just says Kernow. It's not motorway BTW, that stops at Exeter, just dual carriageway. The one entering Saltash has been missing for years.
TheElvenLord Posts: 930 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 16:45	Okay, Im sure it says Kernow a'gas dynnargh Im not 100% though! TEL Everything is impossible until it is not.
Mike Posts: 2537 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 16:48	Someone wrote 'You're' in front of 'Welcome to Redruth' once
TheElvenLord Posts: 930 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 16:52	That doesnt make sense You are in front of Welcome to Redruth Doesnt make any sense TEL Everything is impossible until it is not.
P_Trembath Posts: 979 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 16:57	TheElvenLordThat doesnt make sense You are in front of Welcome to Redruth Doesnt make any sense TEL It would if you had been there. Kernow Kensa! Our day will come! "Everyone has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
goky online Posts: 1635 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 17:00	It is not Kemmyn as there is only one n,(dynnargh) Could be Unified or the SWF,??? Blog Gokypyth yw 'Agan Tavas"?, Agan Tavas yw Eddie Climo. Agan Taves Nowyth
TheElvenLord Posts: 930 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 17:03	Do the Council or whoever have access to the SWF documents at this time? TEL Everything is impossible until it is not.
fletch_2002 Posts: 78 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 17:19	I was so happy when I saw that on saturday. Had a big grin on my face!!
fletch_2002 Posts: 78 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 17:20	I think its dynargh not dynnargh
pdunbar Posts: 245 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 17:38	fletch_2002I think its dynargh not dynnargh Could well be. You wouldn't expect the Highways party to know how to spell, now would you? - Pawl
TheElvenLord Posts: 930 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 17:39	How many of them can speak Cornish in the first place TEL Everything is impossible until it is not.
Egloshal Posts: 556 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 18:14	No... I have a pic and it says: Kernow a'gas dynergh Radyo an Gernewegva
Cawsando online Posts: 477 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 18:14	There's one at Torpoint as well, go and tell people to take photos! They were going to erect an abstact Cornish celtic cross at the Saltash entrance, but did'nt have the funds. What we need next are some heroic cornish statues at our entrances. Plenty of Space at Torpoint. We still need a sign change for Cremyll, an old Cornish settlement name, where the Cremyll ferry lands, near the fascist royal colony of Mount Edgecumbe. This would be a great place for a Cornish shop, we get hundreds of tourists arriving by water, with a joke passport check. Tamar Cruising needs their "Don't stand on the seats" signs translated, so anyone who is fluent needs to email them on:info@tamarcruising.com With the answer. KERNOW DOES'NT BOW TO LONDON
fletch_2002 Posts: 78 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 18:22	EgloshalJust to report that after almost ten years without a Cornish language welcome sign to Cornwall on the Tamar Bridge... one went up ten days ago. Photo to follow. /was there a Cornish sign up 10 years ago or did you mean that we've been asking for 10 years?
morvran Posts: 1293 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 18:50	The word for 'greets' in Cornish is dynnergh as in Kernow a'gas dynnergh, and the word for 'greeting(s)' is dynnargh as in Dynnargh dhe Gernow. So why all the signs put up last year along the border saying "dynergh/dynargh"? There is only one attestation of these words in the texts, here it is (mutated after 'dre') : TWO N's! Plain as the nose on your face. Norris transcribed it right, but somehow Nance got it wrong, and it would seem that to the "Authenticists" the word of Nance (even when clearly wrong) carries more weight than the authentic texts. What kind of authenticity is that! And then they have the nerve to make a fuss about bywnans!
Nothlenn Posts: 221 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 21:03	Incidentally, Keith Syed pointed out that he recalls examining all the occurrences of the root dynnargh- in the Texts and found that it always means 'send' or 'convey' greetings, which may not give exactly the correct sense where it is a road sign or a doormat doing it, anyway! Tony Snell quoted texts to show 'Lowenna dhis' might be more appropriate: Quote[Pope Silvester to the messenger taking the Papal Bull authorising Meryasek's consecration: BM ll 2781 - 2783 Bennath Krist re bo genes! dynnerghewgh arlydhi an wlas dhymmo vy ha Meryasek Messenger from Emperor Tiberius addressing Pilate: RD ll 1627 – 1629 Syrra Pilat, lowena dhis! genev yth os dynnerghys gans Cesar an Emperour.]
Egloshal Posts: 556 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 22:13	Whatever... piffle... all languages change meanings of words over quite short periods... just look at the word 'gay'. In this instance, the word 'Dynnargh' now means 'welcome' or 'greetings' whatever its exact meaning was in the past. Radyo an Gernewegva
morvran Posts: 1293 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 22:32	"Lowena dhys" is the way they say 'Hello!' in the texts. Lit. "Joy to thee!" I think we should bring it back, at least as an option, rather than "dydh da" etc which is really just a translation of English 'Good day' or French 'Bon jour'. Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Eddie-C Posts: 773 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 22:59	Nothlenn. . . Tony Snell quoted texts to show 'Lowenna dhis' might be more appropriate: Quote[Pope Silvester to the messenger taking the Papal Bull authorising Meryasek's consecration: BM ll 2781 - 2783 Bennath Krist re bo genes! dynnerghewgh arlydhi an wlas dhymmo vy ha Meryasek Messenger from Emperor Tiberius addressing Pilate: RD ll 1627 – 1629 Syrra Pilat, lowena dhis! genev yth os dynnerghys gans Cesar an Emperour.] I'm astonished to see that Pope Silvester, Meryasek and Emperor Tiberius's lackey all used Kernewek Kemyn, a couple of millennia before George conconcted his parvum opus. Isn't that just a teensy bit anachronistic of them? Perhaps Tony wasn't quoting 'the texts' as such, but merely Kemynised versions of them. Given that the original spelling's been mangled so much, who know's what else the KK transcriber took liberties with? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - KS y'n Udn Form Screfys? -- Hep wow! Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
goky online Posts: 1635 Posted: 18.Feb 2008 - 23:09	Hey Eddie, this may come as a shock but they did not use the SWF, UCR or Nance either, so what is your point,that we never transribe the old texts?? Blog Gokypyth yw 'Agan Tavas"?, Agan Tavas yw Eddie Climo. Agan Taves Nowyth
pdunbar Posts: 245 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 13:50	Eddie-C Nothlenn. . . Tony Snell quoted texts to show 'Lowenna dhis' might be more appropriate: Quote[Pope Silvester to the messenger taking the Papal Bull authorising Meryasek's consecration: BM ll 2781 - 2783 Bennath Krist re bo genes! dynnerghewgh arlydhi an wlas dhymmo vy ha Meryasek Messenger from Emperor Tiberius addressing Pilate: RD ll 1627 – 1629 Syrra Pilat, lowena dhis! genev yth os dynnerghys gans Cesar an Emperour.] I'm astonished to see that Pope Silvester, Meryasek and Emperor Tiberius's lackey all used Kernewek Kemyn, a couple of millennia before George conconcted his parvum opus. Isn't that just a teensy bit anachronistic of them? Perhaps Tony wasn't quoting 'the texts' as such, but merely Kemynised versions of them. Given that the original spelling's been mangled so much, who know's what else the KK transcriber took liberties with? It has been Language Board policy now for some years to publish the texts in triple parallel text - Kernewek Kemmyn, original ms spelling and a translation to English. The recent publication of 'Bywnans Ke' at an extremely affordable £11 plus p&p is a good example of this. The Language Board has published far more of the original ms spellings of the texts than any other body. Eddy knew all this but prefers his own fiction to the publicly avaailable facts. - Pawl
Evertype Posts: 1157 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 17:11	'Greeted' is dynerghys at RD 1628, but of course Keith suppresses this information. Keith buys the theory that <nn> and <n> distinguished length in Traditional Cornish, but that's just wishful theory. Certainly gemination has failed to take root in Revived Cornish. The SWF convention of alternating <dn> and <nn> in words which pre-occlude is much more helpful than a theory nobody knows about, much less implements.
Egloshal Posts: 556 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 17:37	God... I just wanted to tell people about some f*cking good news. But like always it has to turn into bloody argument. Radyo an Gernewegva
goky online Posts: 1635 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 17:44	Isn't the transformation of nn to dn, just a side form of the SWF Blog Gokypyth yw 'Agan Tavas"?, Agan Tavas yw Eddie Climo. Agan Taves Nowyth
TheElvenLord Posts: 930 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 17:49	Unfortunatly Egloshal, thats what happens. Thanks Eglolshal for the news. But without argueing there is no progress! TEL Everything is impossible until it is not.
Mike Posts: 2537 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 17:50	EgloshalGod... I just wanted to tell people about some f*cking good news. But like always it has to turn into bloody argument. It was good news Egloshal, the signs been missing for years. Perhaps we want to spell it different ways to different people, depending on how genuine the welcome is
Palores online Posts: 279 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 18:14	Evertype'Greeted' is dynerghys at RD 1628, but of course Keith suppresses this information. Because it is irrelevant. <nn> is reduced to <n> here (and elsewhere) because it is unstressed. Nance did not understand this, and failing to appreciate the significance of <nn> at PC.2195, misspelled the word. We now suffer the effects of this mistake more than 50 years later.
Evertype Posts: 1157 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 18:20	Uh hunh. That's why geminate consonants are all the rage amongst KK speakers. Including Ken George. Listen to Matthew's interview with him. He does not say ['kɛm:ın]. He says['kɛmın].
goky online Posts: 1635 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 18:31	I have a lisp, can I have my own side form /?? Blog Gokypyth yw 'Agan Tavas"?, Agan Tavas yw Eddie Climo. Agan Taves Nowyth
morvran Posts: 1293 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 18:53	If you can say n and m, and you can say dn and bm, then why should it suddenly become almost impossible (according to some) for English speakers to do nn and mm, since these sounds fall somewhere between the single consonants and the 'preoccluded' Late Cornish forms? If you and all the other outside 'experts' think we're not speaking Cornish properly why don't you use your experience of 1,001 other languages to help teach us to do it right? You could offer a phonetics workshop to our teachers for example. But no, you, Trond, and all the others clever experts prefer to mock us rather than help us. But this should not surprise us here in Cornwall. Taking the piss out of the Cornish Language Revival is a venerable academic passtime. These days language revival/revitalisation is all the rage and top-rate linguists are to be found working with minority communities worldwide. Not here though, we're cursed with an outmoded narrow-minded antiquarian mindset. Elsewhere linguists strive to get the locals trained and working to save their own heritage. Here we've had to do it all ourselves, and all we get for our pains is academic is scorn. Michael, you clearly have no intention of being part of the solution, so please just go away and stop being part of the problem. Yours is a dog-in-the-manger attitude -- you can't win, all you can do is spoil things for the majority.
Pokorny Posts: 213 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 19:39	Why do you think Trond mocks you?
Bardh Posts: 975 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 20:47	EgloshalWhatever... piffle... all languages change meanings of words over quite short periods... just look at the word 'gay'. In this instance, the word 'Dynnargh' now means 'welcome' or 'greetings' whatever its exact meaning was in the past. Excisely and perzactly!
morvran Posts: 1293 Posted: 19.Feb 2008 - 20:47	1. You will have seen the questionare he sent out to advisors regarding gemination and a few other points. His attitude was patronising and biased. If you refer to the responses by the advisors you will see that one set of advisors agreed almost entirely with Trond's starting position, while the other team disagreed with nearly every point. It doesn't matter which group was which. If his starting position coincided almost exactly with one faction, what confidence can we place in his neutrality? 2. The Commissioners did not think it worthwhile consulting with the various language groups. This implies that they held us in contempt. Without spending an hour or two talking with members of each organisation, how were they expected to judge the calibre of the people they were dealing with. How can we have confidence that they did not misunderstand the submissions (easy to do) or jump to false conclusions due to lack of background information? 3. The Commission's 'Report' was all spin and no content. They did not sumarise the data or explain how they reached the conclusion that no existing form was viable. I do not believe they took their job seriously. I think they probably considered Cornish a bit of a joke. Some years ago that might not have been surprising, but for the last couple of decades linguists have been taking language loss/restoration very seriously. Not Cornish though, or so it would seem to me.