Topic:	Kernewek Mashup
Fulub-le-Breton Posts: 3940 Posted: 9.Mar 2008 - 14:57	Just a little example of what your bickering fuels: http://mudhook....ewek-mashup/ QuoteKERNEWEK MASHUP 15 February 2008 Parturient montes nascetur…Kernewek mashup. They have laboured and produced a new, credible, viable, seventh, version of Cornish. No doubt it will have an uplifting adjective attached until it becomes just Kernewek. It is a mashup of the present varieties of Cornish (listed, if you are really interested, here) and tries to accommodate the various spellings and sounds in a single spelling system. It is intended - hoped - that this is the version that will be seen as the official, standard one and will be paramount for writing; a single written form of the language. The current others will become variants, probably still used by some of their present devotees. I think that over time the users will develop naturally a living standard as happens in every language and these days of disagreement will be an unhappy far-off memory. Of course controversy will always accompany language usage but it will be about the Cornish homologues of the intrusive r and different from/ to / than and the death of the subjunctive in English, the whole world to a few, nothing to most. There’s still much to do: for example, a dictionary, the spelling of place names, how to invent new words for new things that will come along. Despite the welcome from most users and friends for the cooperative work and its fruits after years of factional disagreements, there has been much public contention from a few and if that spirit prevails all will be lost - you and I may fume about global warming, poverty, terrorism, inflation; these people rage about how to spell words in a reconstructed language. The silent majority of the level-headed among the present Cornish users must cry themselves to sleep. By the way, what’s Cornish for mashup? ALL HAPPY WITH YOURSELVES? The Cornish Democrat The Breton Connection
goky Posts: 1313 Posted: 9.Mar 2008 - 15:13	what was that about? just someone else ranting, so what. Anyway we have given up on this SWF thing. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
Fulub-le-Breton Posts: 3940 Posted: 9.Mar 2008 - 15:16	gokywhat was that about? just someone else ranting, so what. Anyway we have given up on this SWF thing. One more individual committed, so it seems, to undermining the Cornish movement. The Cornish Democrat The Breton Connection
goky Posts: 1313 Posted: 9.Mar 2008 - 15:36	Depends on how you define the 'Cornish Movement' and who is attempting to run it, the politicians, or the speakers. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
Nosdan Posts: 1048 Posted: 9.Mar 2008 - 16:20	I wish chris would kick Goky... He's such a troll. edited by: Nosdan, Mar 09, 2008 - 04:21 PM Mar vedhow avel gelvinek (as maazed as a curlew)
Fulub-le-Breton Posts: 3940 Posted: 9.Mar 2008 - 16:24	Indeed. The Cornish Democrat The Breton Connection
TheElvenLord online Posts: 754 Posted: 9.Mar 2008 - 19:21	A vrewis?? Mashed/ Mashup TEL Everything is impossible until it is not.
pdunbar Posts: 245 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 14:09	Fulub-le-BretonJust a little example of what your bickering fuels: http://mudhook....ewek-mashup/ ALL HAPPY WITH YOURSELVES? Fulub, as the Cornish Democrat, shouldn't you support the wish of the majority of Cornish speakers as to how they wish to spell the language? Also should you not question the validity of the conduct of the Partnership which breaches Nolan on several fundamental points as well as coming squarely within the parameters of Wednesbury unreasonableness? The problem with mudhook's comment is that, just as the rights and wrongs of an argument in a language one doesn't understand is unascertainable, so is an argument about a language one doesn't understand. Without a thorough understanding of the subject, making a judgement at all is foolish. Judging all parties to a dispute to be equally at fault is the sort of behaviour that little old women who 'can't bear argument' indulge in, with self-righteous clucks. Perhaps 'mudhook' is a little old lady? - Pawl
Nosdan Posts: 1048 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 14:47	Quotemajority of Cornish speakers Has the survey details been released... i don't think so? QuoteJudging all parties to a dispute to be equally at fault by my book they are... perhaps for all different reasons... But all parties are as biligerant as each other. Mar vedhow avel gelvinek (as maazed as a curlew)
morvran online Posts: 1018 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 15:27	Nosdan Quotemajority of Cornish speakers Has the survey details been released... i don't think so? That is our point too! Quote QuoteJudging all parties to a dispute to be equally at fault by my book they are... perhaps for all different reasons... But all parties are as biligerant as each other. So we're supposed to sit here and smile sweetly while people tell bare-faced lies about us. Why shouldn't we be entitled to a fair hearing? edited by: morvran, Mar 10, 2008 - 03:27 PM
Nosdan Posts: 1048 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 17:21	I'm not saying either side is worse than the other, but taking moral high ground would suggest you do sit and smile. The continuous to and fro on these forums is clear to even the most impartial observer to be a waste of time and energy, and all those involved are being idiotic. Think of it outside the kernewegoryon box for a moment. These people are arguing about the spelling system of a language that has been dormant for 200 odd years spoken by a few and fluently so by even less like it was the brink of nuclear war! The main sticking point is they have 3 perfectly good spelling systems - 2 additional compromises and a state backed compromise being developed with the differences incredible small, whimsically so. The spoken form remains intelligible between all factions as does the written forms. It reminds me of the episode of Red dwarf "waiting for god" when they decipher the cat bible and find the cat people had holy wars over the colour of their hats! Now who thinks Holy wars are sensible? Mar vedhow avel gelvinek (as maazed as a curlew)
Fulub-le-Breton Posts: 3940 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 17:40	QuoteFulub, as the Cornish Democrat, shouldn't you support..... blah blah blah..... Really don't get it do you? edited by: Fulub-le-Breton, Mar 10, 2008 - 06:41 PM The Cornish Democrat The Breton Connection
Mike Posts: 2300 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 18:04	Fulub-le-Breton QuoteFulub, as the Cornish Democrat, shouldn't you support..... blah blah blah..... Really don't get it do you? edited by: Fulub-le-Breton, Mar 10, 2008 - 06:41 PM The Kernewek language is the only real thing that sets Cornwall apart from other parts of the UK and so is pretty fundamental to any Cornish cause. I would find it incredibly easy to argue that other topics are not too dissimilar in Cornwall, especially many that you discuss Fulub. As a consequence the language is very important and the experts should be allowed to discuss it freely. That everyone can defend their point is democracy. Otherwise we will end up with a meaningless hybrid and be subject to ridicule. The form of language chosen should be self-consistent and not a mixture. If this is achieved, it does not matter what 'mudhook' and the like think as the expertise is above them.
pdunbar Posts: 245 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 18:17	Fulub-le-Breton QuoteFulub, as the Cornish Democrat, shouldn't you support..... blah blah blah..... Really don't get it do you? edited by: Fulub-le-Breton, Mar 10, 2008 - 06:41 PM Fulub, you extensively quoted an 'outsider viewpoint' article by 'mudhook' and then made the comment 'ALL HAPPY WITH YOURSELVES?' You comment on my posting was 'blah blah blah..... Really don't get it do you?' Could you please explain a little more clearly the point which you are trying to make? - Pawl
Cawsando Posts: 278 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 18:31	He's saying that the point Mudhook has put forward is that we are not strengthening the prestige of the language by attempting to say one form or other is better, whether it's been created by one man, whether its a mixture of periods, or whether its a reconstructed late 19th century version. The point is, damage continues to be dealt to the repuation and authenticity of the language worldwide whilst it is fractured. Hence the importance of all speakers pledging alliance to the SWF. Myself, like many, are not ready to learn the language properly until the complete SWF is agreed upon. Double the interest will arise once that difference has been concreted. I would suggest that Mudhook is a miserable Plymouthian, with a little to much time on his hands. There is a lot of anti cornish feeling in Plymouth. We should have cornish classes there when the SWF is ready, there are many cornish men and women about who would learn. KERNOW DOES'NT BOW TO LONDON
Cawsando Posts: 278 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 18:31	As for Mike's point, we also have three indiginous sports, Gigs, Hurling and wrestling. What are the names of these sports in SWF? We also have a plethora of unique festivals, and a written heritage, so we do have a recognisable culture. KERNOW DOES'NT BOW TO LONDON
pdunbar Posts: 245 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 19:09	Cawsando Hence the importance of all speakers pledging alliance to the SWF. Even if it is a linguistically unsound, unworkable mess, with serious and unnecessary inbuilt problems which would make teaching and learning it difficult, including an inability of the ad-hoc group to agree on basic pronunciation? We need the best available spelling to go into schools if we want kids to learn it. The Partnership will have to have a serious rethink. - Pawl
Palores Posts: 265 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 19:13	Cawsando The point is, damage continues to be dealt to the repuation and authenticity of the language worldwide whilst it is fractured. Hence the importance of all speakers pledging alliance to the SWF. The reputation of the language does not depend on whether the movement is fractured or not. It depends on how academically defensible the revived language is. That is why so much effort has been put into getting Kernewek Kemmyn as accurate as possible. I for one cannot pledge allegiance (and certainly not "alliance" ) to an inferior product.
marhak Posts: 2484 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 21:52	If you can't pledge allegiance to an inferior product, why support Kemmyn? Its flaws, based upon a mistaken phonology and faulty database, are well known but have never been addressed (at least since the initial tj/dj disaster. Do you know what KG has said now? That final -y should not be accepted into the SWF because Welsh and Breton both have final -i. No matter that final -y is attested roughly 100 times more than -i in Cornish texts. I have news for him. Cornish is not Welsh. Cornish is not Breton. It is Cornish. And Cornish has -y. Nor should Cornish be made to become like Breton or Welsh. It is distinct from both and should remain distinct. Cornish developed assibilation. Welsh and Breton did not. Are we then, by the same argument, to say that "wood" should now be spelt "coet"? And kick 800 years of history and NATURAL (not one man's late 20th century theoretical) development into touch? No, we should not. But if we are to accept final -i because Welsh and Breton are to provde the model (according to KG), then assibilation will have to go too. Totally unacceptable. edited by: marhak, Mar 10, 2008 - 08:54 PM
morvran online Posts: 1018 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 22:58	Sorry Marghek, "i" and "y" represent two quite different sounds in KK. The weren't distinguished very well in the texts because they hardly ever wrote "i" and when they did it was interchangable with "y". The "y" sound is only found at the end of a handful of words, like "my" and "ty", everywhere else (always when unstressed) final "y" changed to "e" and then to "a", so almost all the "y"'s at the end of words in the old texts represent the "i"-sound. So we spell them with "i". There's a reason for everything. You I think, see yourself as a Cornish patriot, yet you want to spell the language with a ill-fitting bodged second-hand English system. We can do a bit better. The Bretons for example no longer write Breton in French spelling, "quet" for "ket" and "eux" for "eus" etc. Yet that's how Breton was spelled at the time our texts were written. Why is it OK for them to have a first-class system that fits their language, but we're supposed to use a second-class system that doesn't? Again, the problem is caused because the language went out of use, so people can't distinguish between Cornish words and names that have passed into English (including Cornish dialect English) and been transformed in the process, and the Cornish language itself. The whole point of Cornish, it's central significance to Cornish separateness, it that it is a whole separate language in it's own right. It's not a "dialect", not funny "naughty English". It's a different language. The place names sound different in Cornish. Just as Welsh or Gaelic names have different versions from those used in English. Same with Breton and French, or Basque and French/Spanish, or anywhere else in the world that's bilingual. Cornish is a different language from English. Dressing it up as "funny English" does no-one a service.
goky Posts: 1313 Posted: 10.Mar 2008 - 23:14	How come it is ok for NJW to refer to Breton and Welsh in his analysis of Cornish, but not ok for Ken George to do the same?? Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
pietercharles Posts: 243 Posted: 11.Mar 2008 - 08:27	marhak, why do you do this? Why do you pronounce on matters when you clearly haven't taken any time to understand them? Like you, I'm not a linguist. But it turns out that linguistics is really not that difficult to understand, so you could at least make an effort. If you did, you would be able to make a fairly sensible judgement about '-i' and '-y' and understand why Kemmyn is the way it is, even if you didn't like it - and you surely wouldn't. It would also allow you to see that there is absolutely no parallel whatsoever between the '-i' / '-y' choice and assibilation, and that there is not a universal rule in Kemmyn that says 'do it the way it's done in Welsh and Breton'. It is very difficult not to believe that you are being fed these peculiar notions by someone that does understand the issues and who is egging you on to wind everybody up so that they assume entrenched positions. Whether that's true, or you are single-handedly coming up with this tosh, it is, to quote your very self, "totally unacceptable". But we'll no doubt have to put up with more of it as this nightmare rolls on.
Palores Posts: 265 Posted: 11.Mar 2008 - 10:54	Marhak why support Kemmyn? Its flaws, based upon a mistaken phonology and faulty database, are well known but have never been addressed (at least since the initial tj/dj disaster) Marhak has been misled here by propaganda. Kernewek Kemmyn is not based upon a database, faulty or otherwise. He may not appreciate that every criticism of KK is taken seriously, and examined carefully. It is important to the developers (plural) of KK that it be the best orthography available. So if any criticisms are found to be substantiated, then steps are taken to correct errors. These usually concern the misspelling of a few individual words. Occasionally structural faults come to light and these are also corrected. As a (now rather old) example, Marhak mentioned the matter of tj/dj. More recently, Keith Bailey drew attention to the existence of the /yw/ phoneme. I understand that the Language Board recently agreed that words containing it be spelled with <uw>. Williams has identified what he claims are other structural faults. These claims of alleged flaws have similarly been scrutinised. None has been found to be valid. The phonology is not mistaken.
goky Posts: 1313 Posted: 11.Mar 2008 - 11:54	QuoteI have news for him. Cornish is not Welsh. Cornish is not Breton Modern Standard Cornish is not English either or the Cornglish of Treagar,or certain other forms of revived Cornish. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
pdunbar Posts: 245 Posted: 11.Mar 2008 - 14:58	And anyway, surely you meant 'lashup'? Or do you have a lisp? - Pawl
Fulub-le-Breton Posts: 3940 Posted: 12.Mar 2008 - 17:26	Mike Fulub-le-Breton QuoteFulub, as the Cornish Democrat, shouldn't you support..... blah blah blah..... Really don't get it do you? edited by: Fulub-le-Breton, Mar 10, 2008 - 06:41 PM The Kernewek language is the only real thing that sets Cornwall apart from other parts of the UK and so is pretty fundamental to any Cornish cause. I would find it incredibly easy to argue that other topics are not too dissimilar in Cornwall, especially many that you discuss Fulub. As a consequence the language is very important and the experts should be allowed to discuss it freely. That everyone can defend their point is democracy. Otherwise we will end up with a meaningless hybrid and be subject to ridicule. The form of language chosen should be self-consistent and not a mixture. If this is achieved, it does not matter what 'mudhook' and the like think as the expertise is above them. Yes the 'experts' should be allowed to discuss it freely but what they should refrain from doing is having childish slanging matches on a public internet forum which just make everyone look silly. As for Pawls remarks about my views on democracy and majority rule. Pawl surely a democracy must listen to and protect its minorities as well? You know with the Celtic Devonshire / Devonwall movement being so quiet at the momment I wonder if they haven't actually invested the Cornish language scene in order to cause disent and disagreement. The Cornish Democrat The Breton Connection
Mike Posts: 2300 Posted: 12.Mar 2008 - 17:49	QuoteYou know with the Celtic Devonshire / Devonwall movement being so quiet at the momment I wonder if they haven't actually invested the Cornish language scene in order to cause disent and disagreement. No, they were just beaten by the arguments. To continue would have made them look sillier and sillier.
Mike Posts: 2300 Posted: 12.Mar 2008 - 18:46	There's been no response from AT on the i and y controversy talked about in this thread!
morvran online Posts: 1018 Posted: 12.Mar 2008 - 20:30	When you come up with a good answer, they never admit defeat. The just go quiet for a while, then start up again as if nothing had happened. The temptation is to begin explaining whatever it was all over again. But it's pointless really, as much use as talking to a brick wall. The other day I found a list of their claims from a couple of years ago. Most of them have been refuted several times over but they're still coming out with them. You know, "rigged meeting", "faulty secret database", "magic algorithym", "one man & a computer", "not qualified", "Kesva strong-arm tactics", "all just theory", "sustained criticism", "no academic support", "we're all arrogant", "nobody uses it anyway (unless they've been forced to)", "copied from Breton (or Welsh)", "trad. texts not written like English", on and on, and the same for a whole list of technical linguistic points which I won't bore you with here. All bullshite, but they won't be told. I'm fed up of refuting all this over and over, I need to spend more time with my language Don't believe a word of it -- "Empty vessels make most sound".
goky Posts: 1313 Posted: 12.Mar 2008 - 20:45	Quote-- "Empty vessels make most sound". That explains Eddie. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.
Mike Posts: 2300 Posted: 13.Mar 2008 - 15:21	MikeThere's been no response from AT on the i and y controversy talked about in this thread! Still awaiting a response to this technical point.
Egloshal Posts: 519 Posted: 13.Mar 2008 - 15:35	Yw Eddie yn fyw hwath? Ny welis vy postyans dhiworto a-gynsow! Radyo an Gernewegva
goky Posts: 1313 Posted: 13.Mar 2008 - 19:54	QuoteYw Eddie yn fyw hwath? Ny welis vy postyans dhiworto a-gynsow! Ev a worta dannvonadow a y ledyer po mester. Blog Gokki,(Gokky's Blog)Skodhyewgh tesyans bys-efan ! Kernewek rag an Gour Gwir updated.