Posts: 121
Posted:
16.Mar 2008 - 16:35
Errr, What qualifies as being Cornish?
Is it, as one looks at a map, being born on the left hand side of the river Tamar?
Is is accident of geographic location of where you were whelped?
I ask this as a resident of Cornwall, who has lived here a 'bleedy' long time, who 'has' actually worked as a teenager in the now 'extinct' Cornwall mining industry (Mount Wellington Mine), who used to work in the Cornish Agricultural industry (and I don't speak any Eastern European Language) on a farm as a herdsman. I ask as someone who has previously run my own businesses in Cornwall employing & training local people in attaining nationally recognised qualifications. But I'm not Cornish born.
Is Cornish genetically proveable by DNA as a seperate race?
In which case... DNA wise is it not possible there are a damn site more people living in some old former mining towns in America & Australia who might have claim to be 'Cornish' through strength of genetic composition more so than 2nd, 3rd or fourth generation accident of birth Cornish here?
I ask because I often find I am more knowledgeable of certain aspects of Cornwall & Cornish history, even Celtic culture, than the average Cornishperson.
When I have asked "What 'exactly' a person is 'proud' of in being Cornish for", I have been met with blank expressions.
Is it a state of mind?
"All for one"...and yet I find an incredibly high levels of racist, biogoted, zenphoibic attitudes, often from people who have never even had a conversation with an Indian, Pakistani, Pole or a Latvian.
Of ALL the 20 or so people who originally made up the support team for a homeless Cornish born teenager, only ONE was Cornish born(and his parents were not Cornish)...the rest were concerned incomers.
What about those 'dipped with the tar brush' of more Spainish origin in certain parts of Cornwall (or is this an old wives tail?)
I love this county/country/peninzula..'out crop', for its rugged beauty, I sometimes despair & despise it for its mean spirited, inward looking isolationist dogma, often rooted in past achievement of over two centuries ago.
I'm sure its been asked before, but what is the quintessential 'thing' that makes 'being Cornish'?
I'm gonna get some flack now, but...
What qualifies as being 'Cornish'?
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Posts: 2134
Posted:
16.Mar 2008 - 16:44
Knowing when to keep quiet
Posts: 121
Posted:
16.Mar 2008 - 16:57
Perhaps remaining quiet might account for why Cornwall was ecconomically poorer than some of the East European countries wanting to join the European Union?
I remember when some Kent Coal Miners (the most militant of all) came down to Cornwall looking for work around the time of the Coal miners stike. They took one look at the Cornish mining industry...and went back home, not willing to work in such conditions and without union protection & representation. I was the mine works committee member for our shift, one said to me "Cornish miners might be strong in Arm...but their thick in head"...he added the Cornish mining industry would become extinct...he was right!
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Posted:
16.Mar 2008 - 17:01
First you need to understand that race, ethnicity, nationality and citizenship are not the same thing at all.
Much the same as any other ethno-national identity whether English, Scottish, Russian or Basque, it is ones perception of ones own identity. Let me ask you, what makes someone English?
Everyone will have their own definition of what Cornishness is, a thousand Cornwalls and a thousand ways of being Cornish. However what must be accepted is that there is a pole of Cornish national identity that exists in Kernow in much the same way as any other national identity.
In the past populations shared a lot more DNA but today to find any kind of genetic fronteer in Europe is impossible I'd say.
There are racists and bigots in the Duchy but it is far from the most xenophobic part of the UK. After living in Lincoln I can attest to that.
The Cornish Democrat
The Breton Connection
Posts: 2134
Posted:
16.Mar 2008 - 17:08
The Kent coalminers became extinct before Cornwall's tin miners and I think our demise was the price of tin at the time rather than union protection. However, times change and we are in there fighting again in a small way. Interestingly, there is talk of a new coal-fired powerstation in Kent!
Posts: 121
Posted:
16.Mar 2008 - 17:25
I guess they will be getting their coal for the powerstation from Poland then, lol.
It was concern about 'health & safety' in Cornwall without Union rep. that curled the Kent miners toes towards Cornwall I think.
Yes, back in the 80's the production/extraction cost of Cornish tin exceeded the open market price. If I remember correctly Malysia was able to extract tin far cheaper by aluvial river dredging, than hard rock mining.
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Posted:
16.Mar 2008 - 18:38
TEL
My a gar boos
Posts: 165
Posted:
16.Mar 2008 - 23:27
not you.
Posts: 121
Posted:
17.Mar 2008 - 10:12
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Posted:
17.Mar 2008 - 16:40
If you're from Cornwall and you're the 52nd generation of a fishing family from Newlyn, and you think you're Welsh, then you've got to ask questions about what your own definiton of Welsh is.
Identity, like nationality is a creation of individuals and a creation of the chaos of histories leaders, geography and natural disasters.
You can evolve identity, like nationality in the direction you want as an individual.
It depends on what your own motivations and objectives are!
Posts: 762
Posted:
17.Mar 2008 - 16:49
If you have to ask, you're not Cornish yet.
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Posted:
17.Mar 2008 - 16:53
If you really want to find out more then I'd recommend the following books in that order:
Cornwall a concise history / Bernard Deacon
Cornwall a History / Prof Philip Payton
Our Future is History - Identity, Law and the Cornish Question / John Angarrack
West Britons - Cornish Identities and the Early Modern British State / Mark Stoyle
On the Cornish Democrat blog you will find links to pdf files of further reading on questions of Cornish identity as well as many more books to read.
In my more progressive moments I see my Cornishness, and by extension my Cornish nationalism, as a project. An effort to learn more about the past of the land that gave rise to me, my family and the community I grew up in.
It is also a project in terms of creating an empowered and self confident community proud of its past, forward looking and open to all.
The Cornish Democrat
The Breton Connection
Posts: 121
Posted:
17.Mar 2008 - 18:15
...and yes, I realise it is complex Fulub, thats why I asked...as it is not the same for all I suspect?
I wanted to explore how others felt being 'Cornish' was quantifiable and tangiable.
Inclusive and not excluding & hostile
I know a great many people who see being Cornish as a very negative thing and nothing to be proud of at all...
...which is why I wanted to explore what aspects made it a positive identification for people, in particular in achievements of the here and now, not three generations ago or more.
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Posted:
17.Mar 2008 - 20:22
I could not agree more.
There is only one question that needs to be asked, and answered: Are you Cornish, English, or other? There can only be one positive and unambiguous reply to that.TGG For The (Real)Reason Why!
edited by: TGG, Mar 17, 2008 - 08:24 PM
The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within this island.
Posts: 121
Posted:
18.Mar 2008 - 00:17
If you have to ask, you're not Cornish yet
...do you mean the answer is apathetic, lol.
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Posted:
18.Mar 2008 - 11:28
Errr, What qualifies as being Cornish?
Is it, as one looks at a map, being born on the left hand side of the river Tamar?
Is is accident of geographic location of where you were whelped?
I ask this as a resident of Cornwall, who has lived here a 'bleedy' long time, who 'has' actually worked as a teenager in the now 'extinct' Cornwall mining industry (Mount Wellington Mine), who used to work in the Cornish Agricultural industry (and I don't speak any Eastern European Language) on a farm as a herdsman. I ask as someone who has previously run my own businesses in Cornwall employing & training local people in attaining nationally
recognised qualifications. But I'm not Cornish born
Is Cornish genetically proveable by DNA as a seperate race?
In which case... DNA wise is it not possible there are a damn site more people living in some old former mining towns in America & Australia who might have claim to be 'Cornish' through strength of genetic composition more so than 2nd, 3rd or fourth generation accident of birth Cornish here?
I ask because I often find I am more knowledgeable of certain aspects of Cornwall & Cornish history, even Celtic culture, than the average Cornishperson.
When I have asked "What 'exactly' a person is 'proud' o
in being Cornish for", I have been met with blank expressions.
Is it a state of mind?
"All for one"...and yet I find an incredibly high levels of racist, biogoted, zenphoibic attitudes, often from people who have never even had a conversation with an Indian, Pakistani, Pole or a Latvian.
Of ALL the 20 or so people who originally made up the support team for a homeless Cornish born teenager, only ONE was Cornish born(and his parents were not Cornish)...the rest were concerned incomers.
What about those 'dipped with the tar brush' of more Spainish
origin in certain parts of Cornwall (or is this an old wives tail?)
I love this county/country/peninzula..'out crop', for its rugged beauty, I sometimes despair & despise it for its mean spirited, inward looking isolationist dogma, often rooted in past achievement of over two centuries ago.
I'm sure its been asked before, but what is the quintessential 'thing' that makes 'being Cornish'?
I'm gonna get some flack now, but...
What qualifies as being 'Cornish'? [/quote
Firstly this forum is crap for replying on, there is somethig definatley wrong on how it the forum is set up,,,,,,Pages off the screen to the right, when you quote something your message starts in the middle of the post your quoting, very very fraustrating, wish someone would sort the bloody thing out....
Any way what makes you Cornish,,,,, well not just living here, being born here, and being of Cornish Blood parentage does....
And I do wish People would get our Motto Correct,,, I heard this from a ;local bloke on the radio the other night aswell,,,this guy rang in about how the Cornwall County Council are about to spend (waste) £50,000 by going branded, and changing the Cornish Logo/crest....The bloke who phoned in was from Rock,, and he said our motto is "All for One" I notice that Pink has put it in his post above aswell,,,,well it aint All for One!!!! its "One and All"
All for One is part of the motto for the 3 Musketeers....All for one and one for all,,,,Nothing to do with Cornwall,,, so any one wanting to be Cornish or claim to be Cornish (a wannabe) best get that right from the start!!
Assumption, is the Mother of all Cockups!
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it, and not have it!
Kernow Bys Vyken
Posts: 944
Posted:
18.Mar 2008 - 12:03
TGG
The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within this island.
Posts: 124
Posted:
18.Mar 2008 - 14:51
TGG, No mate it aint that, as i'm typing now this box has another (same box) behind it, on the right hand side there is a columb of adverts and such like which my text goes behind and I cant see what I'm typing until it drops down to the next line, and so on, everthing is out of sinc with it, I use many forums and this forum is the only one I have this problem with, so I reckon its got to be something to do with how the forum is set up,,, I even use a forum which has the same set up and layout as this one, but I dont get the problem there,,so I am pretty sure its not my PC,,,And therefore has to be the way the forum is set up...as I said, bloody fraustrating!!!
Assumption, is the Mother of all Cockups!
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it, and not have it!
Kernow Bys Vyken
Posts: 944
Posted:
18.Mar 2008 - 15:28
PP, I am not aware of what identity you align yourself with or to, or how you would quantify it, but true identity derives from historical association to, and continuity with, territory and history, which you clearly discount in an unqualified manner.
To be Cornish means only to be 'of Cornwall' whether by descent or adoption and everyone will have their own valid interpretation of what this is for them. Such a question is invariably a 'put-down' and the tone of your opening, and most recent, post suggests that this is your agenda. The total absence of any positives in your postings instantly point to bias - I will not put it any stronger than that.
You are clearly aware of the issues that exist within our Cornish Duchy and that there is an externally driven force that, whether you accept it or not, has been contrived to destroy us - hence the perpetual focus on the 'here and now' - as the processes of psychological genocide take root. The net result is that most of Cornwall currently dwells in the "Santa Zone of Belief" between self-alignment to TEAM-EIS State de fact Propaganda or True Knowledge de jure.
The ambiguity and subjective nature of identity is but one of the tools being deployed. Everyone has a right to their own interpretation of their identity, without it being subjected to clinical observation. It should be good enough for someone to simply say that they are 'Cornish' meaning 'of Cornwall'!
TGG For The (Real)Reason Why!
The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within this island.
Posts: 944
Posted:
18.Mar 2008 - 15:31
TGG
The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within this island.
online
Posts: 389
Posted:
18.Mar 2008 - 16:31
I notice this same problem from time to time on this forum but it normally clears up on its own after a while.
I am awake at 4am to the terrifying undeniable truth that there is nothing I can do to stop the monster
Posts: 121
Posted:
18.Mar 2008 - 18:10
I personally have no wish to be considered Cornish, nor have I ever claimed to be, nor would I qualify (if thats the right terminology) according to some isolationists to the terms laid out here by some, but I do like your 'of Cornwall'
I am 'of Cornwall' by heart and have been here a very long time, the majority of partners with whom I have shared my life have been indigious native born in the county, but sometimes not always of Cornish parents.
Despite self identifying as being gay, I do have a child, (now an adult) born in Cornwall and therfore presumably Cornish and of on one genetic side of a very long Cornish bloodline.
I do believe that Cornwall has had a raw deal from various central government political parties over the years on many issues, but often practically of its own making... by apathy.
An old Cornishman I worked on a farm with said the "Cornish with the get up and go...had got up and gone"...to an extent this remains a problem with the brightest, the cream and often best educated & most capable young minds leaving...often not to return.
I also wonder if all those who are not 'native' born of Cornwall had to move out and all those of third or fourth generation original descent of Cornwall in America & Australia, etc. were to return, whether Cornwall would in fact be faced with a greater housing crisis than that already. I know from my own family line that there are more than 10X as many members of my family in America as a result of just one great uncle emigrant in the early 20th century than there are in the whole of the UK. I would speculate given the number of 'Cousin Jack's', that if the descendents of Cornwall were to return there would be a far bigger housing problem than currently faced.
But this is the here and now, and your possibly right TGG after so many decades living here my encapsulated perspective on what constitutes as being 'Cornish' is not entirely a positive one...by experience. So I was looking, seeking for a more positive perspective...from the self-identifying 'Cornish' themselves...
Which is 'WHY' I asked the original question to try to see what positive atributes and constructive perspectives those who were self identifying as 'Cornish' percieved of themselves...to which the majority of responce was almost 'get orf my land' or 'not you'!
Not the more positive perspective I was hoping for, but practically in line with expectation.
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Posted:
19.Mar 2008 - 12:16
PP, many thanks for the response. My point here was only be able to point out that however & wherever you choose to identify, or live, you will be able to match all the negatives and positives you can imagine. This holds true for whatever identity you care to choose. Cornish, on this occasion, is being singled out for microscopic inspection. Forgive me for repeating but you seem only to be picking up on the negatives and implying no experience of positives. That to me is unreal.
Being ‘of Cornwall’, with the responsibility that that imposes, is for me all that matters, because over time your descendants will form an integral part of an ‘of Cornwall’ future
Bloodline is very important to some but identity does not rest with that alone and, given the history of people, it has more to do with cultural attachment and political affiliation to territory (and language) than blood or DNA.
The TGG site reveals my thinking on that subject. Apathy yes, but why is there apathy?
That is undoubtedly true since the mid-20th century, but I would suggest – from a Cornish Identity point of view, given the TEAM-EIS educational bias - that the 19th century Diaspora was worse because it deprived us of the core of the culturally Cornish Community.
People of Cornish descent worldwide have been estimated at 6 million. We could also speculate that were their ancestors able to stay in the Duchy because there had been no Diaspora, does not mean that the population might be as high, but it would have meant that there was a stronger consolidation of the Cornish identity to withstand, even prevent, some of the trauma imposed throughout the 20th century. I would like to think that much of the TEAM-EIS lies and deception would have been challenged more vigorously.
Are you letting your “experience” paint a negative picture of ‘being Cornish’ as just an unfortunate, seemingly prejudiced, substitute for people in general? As I suggested above, you could write your own list of attributes of self-identification (positives and negatives) about people and apply that list to just about any people-group throughout the world. If you only see the negatives, what is that saying? Are you are also making a mistake of presuming that C24 is necessarily representative of the self-identifying Cornish population? Have you ever communicated with English exiles that have ‘opened up’ about their ‘negative’ reasons for moving to Cornwall?
Sometimes the question is posed that subliminally elicits the expected reply. My reason, in fact, for responding in the manner that I did.
TGG For The (Real)Reason Why!
The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within this island.
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Posted:
19.Mar 2008 - 12:24
And so the trap closes! PP you set up a question and anticipated the response in what turns out as simply an anti-Cornish put down.
You must be quite an angry person but can I suggest you deal with you anger in a more constructive manner rather than letting it turn to prejudice against a minority group like the Cornish, you of all people should know better.
I suppose being a sexual minority doesn't prevent you from being predjudiced.
The Cornish Democrat
The Breton Connection
Posts: 165
Posted:
19.Mar 2008 - 13:09
but i am not closed minded enough to beleive that it should only be we Cornish who should live here.
But i do believe we should come first in our land but that can only happen if the Cornish get of our asses and start taking a more active interest in whats going on around us...like ensuring that this 60.70.000 unafordable hovels DONT get built here...like opposing SWARDA and all there nefarious works. But sadly enough most Cornish dont give a stuff thats why a guy from Bucks has to join Parish councils and therefore ultimately make decisions on our behalf. Maybe the question should actually be who DESERVES to be called Cornish.....
Posts: 91
Posted:
22.Mar 2008 - 20:14
That is Cornwall. Either deal with it or leave it!
Posts: 1213
Posted:
27.Mar 2008 - 00:47
You really should not be voting for UKIP, Ilovehelston! I can think of nothing more inward-looking and isolationist than this fascist organisation that you seem to support on other threads. It is difficult to see how you can make this remark about people who are looking forwards and outwards to the wider Europe. However, I concede that the ambiguity of your posting could lead one to conclude that you are referring to more blinkered individuals on this forum such as Cornish Miner.
Either way, you know where the border is.......
Posts: 57
Posted:
27.Mar 2008 - 12:05
PP, I don't think you ask anything unreasonable, and I don't think reacting to the idiotic responses means you set a trap. I've been there myself, and overreacted far more seriously than you, and had a similar diatribe from FLB.
My experience is that many of the regulars here, even those who are clearly smart and make vaguely inclusive noises, really struggle with any ambiguity when it comes to national identity. You are either Cornish as they define it, or you aren't. Sadly, most people need more than one word to sum up their identity.
I am truly Cornish, and I also feel an English identity (I have a little English blood, I don't harbour any prejuduice towards the English, and I recognise that Cornish and English culture have been cross-polinating for ever). I don't think I'm a rare breed, but because I didn't fit neatly and quietly into a box, I was told in no uncertain terms that my 'Cornish' identity was invalid - I was a second class Cornishman, while they were the carriers of the pure flame. I wasn't sure it was my English great-grandfather or my open mind that bothered people most. I felt patronised and insulted, and climbed the highest horse I could find and started ranting (something you avoided, admirably).
While your question is good, there is no answer. No-one can control what Cornish means, or how the term is used. The Cornish nation is caught between two extremes - those who use the term too loosely and are diluting it's meaning, and those who try to guard it so jealously it becomes exclusive and eventually anachronistic.
Posts: 57
Posted:
27.Mar 2008 - 14:07
Defining "Cornishness":
Some try to play a rather tatty 'race' card, but that has little credibility. Even if you accept the idea of a celtic race in the first place (not universally recognised as a truth), millenia of invasions, migrations, etc have rendered this largely irrelevant.
History, in terms of longstanding family connections/residency, is different to 'race/blood' (though the two are often confused). This is commonly used as a yardstick, but it's only one factor.
Feeling is much harder to quantify or evaluate, but is the key factor. A love and affinity for Cornwall and it's people is obviously vital to a Cornish identity. But - while it would be absurd to define Cornishness in only terms of race/history (and there aren't that many people so absurd left), considering anything as wooly as self-definition opens up two problems, both very clearly shown by the postings above.
- First, invasionists claim Cornishness as soon as moving in, often for their own ends. That's disrespectful and divisive.
- Second, protectionists start to define Cornishness in terms of commitment to their own political ideas, like nationalism, seperatism, or whatever. That's ignorant and divisive.
- Meanwhile, the great majority who can cope with a little ambiguity, watch on a little bemused.
That's why there's no answer to your question. That's why you've met with defensiveness. That's why a positive Cornish identity, which is crucial for our future, is so elusive.
Posts: 91
Posted:
27.Mar 2008 - 14:47
How is UKIP Fascist?
Posts: 595
Posted:
27.Mar 2008 - 15:54
'a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.'http://dictiona...owse/fascism
Given ukip's complete unwillingness to listen to any other perspective other than thier own, combined with thier aggressive methods of putting this point of view across, I'm very doubtful that they have any real respect for the democratic process, which could be defined as listening and engaging with all opinions so as to better represent the electorate.
And their supreme confidence that the British way is best and anything that comes from another country (or bunch of countries - ie, the EU) must be wrong, or daft at best, I'd say that their is a very fierce element of nationalistic supremacy. Moreover, as I think we all know, this nationalism does not recognise Cornish nationalism (which I dont think contains any of that racial supremacy s***t).
But, as this thread is about definitions of Cornishness, maybe stuff about ukip would be better on the other thread?
Posts: 492
Posted:
27.Mar 2008 - 18:28
Can Anyone define an Englishman?
A Frenchman?
A bit more difficult, a Briton?
Or a really tricky one a Tibetan?
You might think that these are easy, but you will find that in many cases, the "answer" depends on your political opinions, in some cases, the answer will depend on the political opinions of others. For example, a Tibetan, could be said to be someone born in Tibet, but the Chinese government will tell you that they're Chinese.
A Briton could be said to be someone born in Britain, but there are many Scots who would argue that they are not British, because, they claim, Scotland is not in Briton. Then you have many from people from various Commonwealth countries who have a legal right to be called British who have not only never been near Briton, but probably none of their ancestors have either.
It is my experience that most people who ask for a definition of Cornishness, or a Cornishman, only do so to find fault, whatever definition is provided them, and it is for that reason, that many "Cornish" get a little tetchy in their replies.
Kernow Kensa!
Our day will come!
"Everyone has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
Posts: 2134
Posted:
27.Mar 2008 - 18:52
Quite right P_Trembath, a lot of waffly twaddle is written on this. People psychoanalysing themselves and others endlessly, stereotyping, you name it. If people don't know what they are, why should anybody take what they write or say seriously. The only dichotomy involved for a Cornishman or Cornishwoman should be the extent of Cornishness, that is 'very' or 'extremely'
Posts: 1213
Posted:
27.Mar 2008 - 22:01
I am also completely p****d off with the sanctimonious 'diatribes' of those who clearly can't tell the difference between S**t and chocolate. If they could, they wouldn't be making the absurd claims that to be Cornish means you are a racist.
May I suggest that those who are thus inclined refer to the Fraser judgement (1983) and the case of Manla v. Dowel Lee to acquaint themselves with a definition of ethnicity that includes inclusivity?
For those who are not aware, ethnicity is all about culture. It has nothing whatsoever to do with race, skin colour, physical appearance, place of birth or blood line. That there is a Cornish ethnicity is beyond doubt but, as yet, it is a case that has not been argued in court.
Clearly, a member of the English majority might argue in court for English ethnicity. However, to date, nobody has done this either.
Fatboychin also makes reference to English identity and national identity without adducing one definition for each of these concepts. It seems to me that this member is greatly confused between ethnicity (which, in the Conish case, using the definition set by Lord Fraser, is very well defined and it most certainly is inclusive providing certain rules are followed), 'National Identity (for which no legal definition exists and it remains meaningless and irrelevant to the Cornish because, once again, it is an Anglo-political concept designed to keep the Cornish and their culture hidden within the official 'English' category), National Origins, citizenship, and nationality.
Several posters, particularly those who are sympathetic to an English point of view, consistently fail to recognise, the Cornish problem as a classic majority - minority conflict.
In the case of Cornish children, for instance, they do not receive a satisfactory education into their minority Cornish history, background, culture etc etc. Instead, they are FORCED to swallow a sanitised Anglo-centric version of history and culture, and adopt a view that is reinforced and sustained by the c**p they receive in a compliant, unquestioningly royalist, Anglo-centric press. The end product of such forced assimilative educational processes works to the favour of the state, controlled by the majority, and is a product with a similarly Anglo-centric outlook.
It is beyond comprehension, therefore, that there are some people who, bearing in mind the impact of incessant assimilative procedures both on our childrn and our families, have the gaul to suggest that it is the Cornish who are racist! Although I do not condone racism or discriminatuion of any sort, I do understand, nonetheless, why some might express anti-English sentiment on account of the following factors:
1) the education system is, by the very nature of majority control, reflective of the history and culture of the majority. There is virtually NO real Cornish history and Cornish language in any Cornish schools. That which is present is limited, superficial and not available to ALL pupils.
2) the political system also is entirely Anglo-centric with English LibDems, Conservatives, and Labour holding the seats at Westminster. The system is so heavily loaded that minority parties, such as MK, do not get a chance at the ballot-box. Moreover, since MK is dependent upon the goodwill of a very small number of people and, with its funding base at such low levels, it is a credit to them that they do get some representation on local public authorities.
3) there has been a failure of the Anglo-centric government, in which the English are the majority, to include the Cornish within the terms of the Framework Convention for the Protection of Natiional Minorities. ALL other UK minorities, indigenous and otherwise, are included within the Convention. Many will be surprised to learn that even a group known as 'foreigners' is covered, following recent Race Relations Act judgements. Yet, a tiny indigenous minority, with a recognised, official language, that was here thousands of years before the English arrived on these shores, is being excluded by the English dominated government from the protection afforded by this important international convention.
4) the Cornish were recognised by the ONS for the 2001 Census. Ten years later, in the lead up to the 2011 Census, the English administrators of the census are doing all they can to remove official backing for the Cornish group, once again, rendering them statistically invisible at a stroke of a pen and, therefore, unable to access specific funds, to which analogous groups have unquestionable access. These funds would facilitate the survival of their threatened cultural objectives.
5) there is, as many here know full well, in Cornwall, a constitutional dilemma for the government. The English dominated government is legally bound to promote the financial interests of the Duke of Cornwall over and above all others. For evidentce of this unwholesome, discriminatory practice, please refer to Section 40, 2 (g) of the Crown Proceedings Act (1947) that gives the Duke of Cornwall 'the right to intervene or otherwise control proceedings that affect his property and profits'. Are the English majority in England, the Scottish minority in the UK, the Welsh minority in the UK or any other minority or majority, for that matter, subject to such feudal discrimination by an institution that belongs to the English majority?? Why is it that the development and well-being of Cornish minority culture comes second to the income and profit of a man who, according to the state is more interested in Transylvanian culture?
It is beyond credulity that, in a country that instructs its 'subjects' and tells the World about its democratic credentials there is one tiny indigenous minority culture that could be exterminated if something isn't done soon!
So, in closing this lengthy missive, I pose the questions:
Who are the racists?
Is it any wonder that the Cornish feel so disenfranchised by a system that persistently discriminates against them, a circumstance that is exploited often on this forum by numerous English nationalists and sympathisers peddling drivel and clap-trap ad nauseum?
Finally, the Cornish question is a cultural question with constitutional overtones. In cultural terms, it is not possible to mix two or more different cultures. So I appreciate that Fatboychin has a great problem with his cultural identity. At the end of the day, it is what is in his heart that counts. Is he prepared to sustain a great injustice to the Cornish people for fear of upsetting his affection for the culture of the English majority? Or is he confusing culture with nationality, national identity (what ever that is) or something else?
online
Posts: 3485
Posted:
27.Mar 2008 - 22:54
If you want to talk about the Cornish national minority and get a wider UK audience why not comment on this OurKingdom thread:
MoJ view of our identities: http://ourkingd...-identities/
In fact why not write the odd article for OurKingdom, I can put you in touch with them?
NO CORNISH STATS! seems we have been forgotten again.
The Cornish Democrat
The Breton Connection
Posts: 227
Posted:
29.Mar 2008 - 22:03
Love of the place, the people, the history, the uniqueness, the feeling of coming home after no matter how many years ?
Its too hard to put into words........
But for my 2p worth, I am Cornish to way back, my family name is mentioned as a proper Cornish name by A. L. Rowse in his books, and he did say that proper Cornish language derived surnames are not common.
I now believe the name is ancient, it features all through Cornish tin mining history. I was born over by Redruth, my dad to St. Erth. Not just tried to buy the identity like the English do.
I AM CORNISH !!!!!!!
Proud to be Cornish !
Posts: 7
Posted:
31.Mar 2008 - 17:13
It is interesting that, a few weeks back, on another Cornish forum, an African contributor styled himself as a “New Cornishman”. He did point out that genetic evidence reveals that all peoples in the world can trace their ultimate origins back to continuing waves of African emigrants starting about 65,000 years ago. Describing himself as a ‘New Cornishman’, he pointed out that he had just left Africa and come to Cornwall a little later than most of us.
What he says is true. Therefore, although some might like to claim old Cornish lineage, such a practice can rapidly become meaningless – the Celts were not the first inhabitants of this place. ‘A’ cannot claim to be more Cornish than ‘B’ because he has even more pre-Celtic genes in him than ‘B’.
Humans leave a mark on places, but so too, in some spiritual way, do places leave a mark on humans. For instance, if you were born and bred within sight of St Michaels Mount, then that view will always hold a special compelling magic for you, particularly when returning after a long period away.
So being Cornish does have something to do with the feeling of strong affinity with a place. I believe that such affinity can come from growing up in a place, but simply moving to it and loving what you find is also a source of such affinity.
Communities can share certain common views. Members of a particular ‘tribe’ can display shared attitudes, outlooks and views because of common heritage. Once on a course in Oxford, I met three fellow Cornishmen. We, and the other course participants, quickly recognised the shared traits in us Cornish - we became a group within a group. We recognised our Cornishness.
The word ‘tribe’ is not inappropriate in this context. Quite the opposite. Tribes have many distinguishing badges. One will always be shared experience of where you come from. Others may be dress or clothing, may be outlook on life, may be language.
To be a tribe, you must in ways be different from others – you must have tribal markings that set you apart. We Cornish do have such markings – in our love for our little land, in the way we look at the world, in some of our customs and, for some very few of us, in the use of a revived language. Anyone that takes on these tribal markings is one of us. Incidentally, you can just as well substitute the word ‘nation’ for ‘tribe’ in this context.
The worst form of national pride is that which seeks to raise itself up by putting others down, by saying in some form “we’re better than you”. Proper pride is merely to acknowledge the differences in one’s ‘tribe’ and to be content in them, as one would be content in a familiar comfy cardigan – and not to be deprecating of others.
I sense a Cornishness within me – particularly when I am among non-Cornish folk. Yes, I am, and feel, Cornish, but, in the same way, particularly on my travels, I feel British and European too.
Gwenver
Posts: 1213
Posted:
31.Mar 2008 - 18:22
That is, I feel, a very important consideration.
On a more personal note, I define my identity as 'Cornish' and, although I used to, I no longer wish to associate myself with the nation that has done, and continues to do, so much to deny me my identity and re-write my history. On the other hand, I have no difficulty in being European.
Posts: 2413
Posted:
31.Mar 2008 - 21:08
At present, the oldest known human remains come from Olduvai Gorge, but is that the real story? There is so much of this planet that has not been similarly explored for human origins: Asia and particularly China is very much underexplored. How about Antarctica? At one time that frozen continent lay within tropical latitudes. What we know at this moment is all that we can surmise - but, for all we really know, another truth lies out there somewhere waiting to be discovered. African origin for the human species is a present day theory based upon the very tenuous evidence currently available, and nothing more.
edited by: marhak, Mar 31, 2008 - 08:10 PM
Posts: 6
Posted:
31.Mar 2008 - 21:20
my name is Alexandre and i´m new in that, i´m from Galicia, and i cant speak a lot of thing about the qualifies as being Cornish, but i dont believe in DNA diferences nor races.., i believe in a diferent history, a diferent culture, i think in Cornish as the celtic south corner of Britain, this is my image from here.
excuse me for my basic english...
Posts: 1213
Posted:
31.Mar 2008 - 21:26
Well said, Alexandre and welcome to the C24 forum. Your English is far superior to that of some of the people who post here who claim English to be their mother tongue!
Hasta luego!
online
Posts: 3485
Posted:
1.Apr 2008 - 08:34
Great to have a contributor from Galicia. Please stay and add your thoughts Alexandre you are very welcome.
In solidarity
FLB
The Cornish Democrat
The Breton Connection
Posts: 6
Posted:
1.Apr 2008 - 08:57
I will try to participate actively as much as I can, I think this web and forum is very interesting for me and for all Kernow.
thanks
Posts: 612
Posted:
1.Apr 2008 - 09:25
In fact, there are "English" people living down the road, who cant speak a word of the Queens english.
It is great to have someone from Galicia,you are very welcome here.
Your English will improve the more you post here.
Why not create a topic about the state of Galicia and what it's like?
So, Benvido
Thanks (or Graciñas for our Galician friend here)
TEL
My a gar boos
Posts: 91
Posted:
1.Apr 2008 - 10:22
That would include the Norman Conquest, wouldnt it?
I think we all know who the most famous Galician is.
Posts: 2134
Posted:
1.Apr 2008 - 11:39
Someone very dear to you, no doubt
Posts: 944
Posted:
1.Apr 2008 - 13:18
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL
TGG For The (Real)Reason Why!
edited by: TGG, Apr 01, 2008 - 01:19 PM
The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within this island.
Posts: 6
Posted:
1.Apr 2008 - 16:05
thanks for your welcome messages
I´m very very surprised to know as cornish people to know Galicia, Galicia is really a small and poor country in a forgoten corner of Europe, and for me is incredible to see people know it, and galician words besides.
However, I´m not sure to know who is the most famous galician..(?), I have a lot of names in my mind, I haven´t idea who can be...who are you knowing about?
Posts: 612
Posted:
1.Apr 2008 - 18:06
Hmm, that reminds me of something, but i dont know what
.Just a quick note alex, you would say "Thinking about" or "Talking about".
I think General Franco perhaps? He was born in Galicia.
And being the troll he is, it probably is.
TEL
My a gar boos
Posts: 2134
Posted:
1.Apr 2008 - 19:26
I have visited and worked in Galicia several times. I'm familiar with Northern Galicia - from Ribadeo, San Ciprian, Ferrol, A Coruna to Santiago de C and inland to Lugo. I really like the place - seafood, wine, scenery. It has a Celtic feel to it - stone walls in the fields and a different architecture to the rest of Iberia. What part do you live in?
Posts: 6
Posted:
1.Apr 2008 - 19:26
Thanks for your correction, I wanted say "thinking about". Yes, General Franco was born in Galicia, and he was galician of course, by the way his house is very near to my town.
Franco represents perfectly the efects that folk people suffer in a country (Galicia) with "two" cultures, in one hand a native culture and in other hand a impossed culture. Franco was born in a farmer house very poor, in the middle of galician rural. All his family spoke galician, and when he was boy too, his surnames was galician too.
Paradoxically, he banned any expression of Galician culture, the use of the galician and his writing. He ordered to assassinate and banish Galician nationalists and never defended the interests of Galicia. Why a galician would do all this against their land, against their language against his people?, The answer is "self-hatred", and the negation of his own identity, Franco was a monster created by Spain, a Spain that does not accept another culture that the Spanish, that mocks of a language other than Spanish, and that discriminates against those who are not inclined, is the sad story of a man who shame until his death of their identity and of their own origin.
By the way, Do you know that the Fidel Castro father was galician?, I have a long list of famous with galician origin.
i hope my English was correct!
Posts: 2413
Posted:
1.Apr 2008 - 20:25
Posts: 5
Posted:
2.Apr 2008 - 20:01
May I also say that, as an onlooker, it is sad that so many arguments take place over the form of the Cornish language.
Best wishes from far away
Wolfgang
Posts: 91
Posted:
2.Apr 2008 - 20:15
Posts: 5
Posted:
2.Apr 2008 - 20:54
Galician language in Turkey disappear many centuries ago. I was short time doctor in London and visit Cornwall. Very beautiful - take care! Like German man, I too visit here time to time. I look, but I see his word.
Iyi aksamlar
Gazanfer
Posts: 2413
Posted:
2.Apr 2008 - 21:23
Many places etc. associated with Celtic peoples in the past (and, sometimes, present, too) include the Indo-European word for Celt: gal/wal. Hence GALatia, GALicia, Gaul, PortuGAL, WALes, CornWALL, Gaelic, WALloon, WALlachia (Dracula country), etc.
This word, familiar all over ancient Europe, was adopted by the proto-English Anglo-Saxons as wealh, pl. wealas, which properly meant "Celtic speaking person", not "foreigner", as it is often translated. They only ever applied it to the Celtic speaking Britons (who were here long before they ever were), and called the Cornish the West Wealas.
edited by: marhak, Apr 02, 2008 - 08:26 PM
Posts: 6
Posted:
3.Apr 2008 - 13:28
For marhak:
Thank you for your question about Galicia, it´s for me a pleasure to try answer it.I´ll try to answer you
“is there anything left of Galicia's Celtic language?”
Obviously. Galician despite being a romance language (as it derives more from medieval Latin) contains many terms inherited from our previous language, many everyday words and place names especially, mountains, rivers, etc. I´m not an expert linguist, but I know some words like: "cadeira" (chair), "croio" (stone), "bidueiro" (birch), "beizo" (lip), "Lama" (mud), "lousa" (flagstone) "basoira" (broom), "dorna" (boat), etc.. Also the name of the country, Galiza (Galicia) is celtic name, and our own name “Galego” (galician) too.
But are place names where it is most curious and where we have hundreds of names such as Carnota, Donon, Lentobre, Nemenzo, Cambados, Marbán, Lubre, Coruna, Taramuno, Cambre, Lugo, Dubra, Broz, Nemenzo, Trevonzos, Pambre, etc. The rivers and mountains also, curiously we too have a river named Tamar (Tamara / Tambre)!
Anyway the study of ancient Celtic language in Galicia is extremely difficult, mainly because unfortunelly we don´t know when they stopped talking, and neither have her written testimony. Even the first texts of Galician (romance) are late in the twelfth century, at that time the galician was a cult language that was developed mainly in the cities and was the language of kings and noblemen largely motivated by the contact of the Pilgrims and noblemen who came to Galicia, mainly from the south of France, to Santiago de Compostela.
There are three points that make it more difficult to study the ancient celtic language of Galicia:
Ancient Galician wasn´t a language derived from the Irish Gaelic as the Manx or Scottish Gaelic, nor was a language born in Britain (such as Cornish, Welsh and Breton), this makes it more difficult his study, since not many can compare our own words with other Celtic languages for knowing their origin.
Missing documents, we only have the oral testimony of our long and toponimico words for the former Celtic tongue.
Precisely all the Medieval documents of Galicia are in Madrid because in the last century all the incredible written documentation of the Galician monasteries was despoliated and taken to Madrid. For years Galicia demanding all documents vital to our history, and the government of Spain refuses to it.
Excuse me my English.
Posts: 6
Posted:
3.Apr 2008 - 16:45
You said "Why do you think Franco banned Galician culture?".
Well, I suppose that a person as Franco who banned to write documents in galician, learning the galician, banned the national anthem and the flag of Galicia, as well as shoot and banish the generation of intellectuals most important of Galicia and the denial of our history (something that still continues) hadn´t much love for his land...
The motto of the fascists and Franco was "Spain, one big and free" the Franco regime wanted one Spain, a Spain centralized, one language, one flag, one feeling, which is why banned all things that ran counter to that, murdering and torturing people who do not think so. That was the politic that led many politicians Spaniards, always for the greatness of Spain……
Why is Galicia one of the few regions in Spain to vote PP?
Well, it's true that Galicia voted for a few years mainly to PP, but that is not much different from other sites… for example in Navarra (part of the Basque Country) also PP is the absolute winner in Valencia and the Balearic Islands (part of the Catalan Countries).
I don´t know if you are actual-informed but the Galician Parliament isn´t ruled by the PP, is ruled by a coalition of parties, the PSG and BNG, Galician Socialists and Galician nationalists , and this is a great step to Galicia has one day a country itself.
Posts: 5
Posted:
3.Apr 2008 - 19:28
Teşekür ederim – Murasta why!
Gazanfer
Posts: 2413
Posted:
3.Apr 2008 - 19:35
Posts: 5
Posted:
3.Apr 2008 - 19:45
I am sorry - my Cornish has run out.
I know 'Da yu genef', which i think mean 'I am well', but this form is not known to me. But I know that 'Da' is good!!
Gazanfer
Posts: 5
Posted:
3.Apr 2008 - 19:57
Arkadaşim Türkcum benim
Seni gücendirmek istemedim
Hoffentlich sind wir jetzt wieder Freunde!!
Wolfgang
Kernow bys vykken
Everybody else - I had dreadful trouble to get back here - it was easy before, I just do not know what happens, but I now manage it quite well.
Do you know of Rosamunde Pilcher? In Germany there are many programmes showing her stories and they very often show Cornwall!! Now you can know why there are so many German cars in Cornwall in the summer!!
Wolfgang
Posts: 10
Posted:
3.Apr 2008 - 20:13
I don't wish to intrude on your conversations with Marhak and Gazanfer (how international we are all becoming?) but I did spend a year in Germany and I did see these stories set in Cornwall - and Scotland - on the television. Whilst the main actors are, of course, German, many of the non-speaking extras are Cornish - my family know some of them! The settings of the programmes are beautiful - as is Cornwall generally.
You are all, as I am sure my other Cornish posters would agree, welcome here!
Willkommen in Kernow!
Jen
Posts: 612
Posted:
3.Apr 2008 - 20:16
So, congratulations. Same to our German friends Wolfgang and Gazanfere.
If any of you are interested in learning the Cornish language, send me a PM to let me know or post here and i will send you some details about where to learn (even from Germany/Galitia)
Thanks
TEL
My a gar boos
Posts: 5
Posted:
3.Apr 2008 - 20:17
Da Sie in Deutschland gewesen sind, werden Sie mich sicherlich verstehen, wenn Ich in deutsch schreibe - ich wollte nur 'Danke' sagen.
Wolfgang
Posts: 5
Posted:
7.Apr 2008 - 18:36
My a vyn ünwyth clerhe -Turk ov.
Murasta why
Gazanfer