Posts: 346
Posted:
14.Jun 2005 - 21:28
Posts: 2538
Posted:
14.Jun 2005 - 22:05
Posts: 234
Posted:
14.Jun 2005 - 22:52
About time ! Kernow Bys Vyken !
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Posted:
14.Jun 2005 - 23:01
Posts: 346
Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 03:56
http://www.corn...h/eng06a.htm
Posts: 319
Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 06:21
Posts: 928
Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 10:35
Martesen lemmyn y hyllyn kavoes unn skrifa-kompoester, ny yllyn pesya gans lies furv a gernewek! Ny vynnyn lenthe po lettya dasvywnans an yeth der argyansow yntredhon ni.
Posts: 5
Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 11:51
Posts: 567
Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 18:34
When I read that I thought it was a new kind of dinosaur.
Posts: 4380
Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 18:50
Bureau for Lesser Used Languages
http://www.eblul.org.uk/index.htm
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Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 18:56
I'd have put it in italics if it was:
Nowodhow tarosvannus
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Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 18:58
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Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 19:02
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Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 19:13
It's the one thing that stops me going the whole hog on our language learning. I don't want to spend more money on books before there is an official decision. I personally prefer Kemmyn but recent Celtic language academics tend to favour UCR. All thoughts would be appreciated!
Posts: 776
Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 20:15
Which one is it? Unified, Old or Middle Cornish? What is Kemmyn?
Posts: 2538
Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 21:07
I'm no expert but Kemmyn = common.
Dyth da and meur ras is Kemmyn while marplek is UCR (marpleg is Kemmyn).
UCR = Deth da and murrasta or muer ras.
Unified Cornish revised = Unys Amendys.
The third version spoken of is Modern Cornish.
All three are said to have their respective merits. The slight differences in spelling means that all 3 can be read and understood if you are fluent in one.
Confused; never mind have 8 pints of Skinners and then you'll be 'maga fur y semlant avel hos ow meras orth comol taran' (looking as wise as a duck looking at a thunder cloud - in UCR)
Of great importance is that beer is Korev in Kemmyn and Corev in UCR.
Posts: 2538
Posted:
15.Jun 2005 - 23:38
Apologies Lyskerrys, I did not translate your perfect Kernewek. I guess there will be a lot of discussion on the final official form chosen, which is no bad thing if a decision is made quickly.
Posts: 24
Posted:
16.Jun 2005 - 03:55
Posts: 928
Posted:
16.Jun 2005 - 11:35
My 2p-worth: I learnt Kemmyn because that was what was being taught where I started lessons, no other reason, but I do find that its phonetic / phonemic spelling makes learning it much easier as you immediately know how to pronounce a written word. As we are trying to get as many people as possible to learn Cornish, an easier and consistent spelling system is surely an advantage.
OTOH, I appreciate people's concerns that it doesn't reflect historical spellings, and would be happy to change to a system closer to Unified if it was necessary to reach a consensus.
My take on Modern is that it has become more Anglicised and the grammar abbreviated or compressed (not sure if that's quite how to describe it!). As a Kemmyn speaker I can understand Unys speakers with no problem but Modern is different enough to cause me problems. Check out the Kernewek Wikipedia front page for examples of Kemmyn (top left), UCR (top right), Modern (bot left), and Unified (bot right). http://kw.wikip...ki/Main_Page
There is now momentum behind the drive to reach agreement on a single system, and there is going to be a meeting in September to try and further this. The new funding money means that a sort of Language Manager can now be appointed who will hopefully be able to oversee the process of reaching an agreement.
As for 'perfect Kernewek' Mike
, not so sure about that - not enough time to keep up the practise!Dyw genowgh hwi oll.
Posts: 705
Posted:
16.Jun 2005 - 13:30
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Posted:
16.Jun 2005 - 14:18
Robert Cawdrey in 1602 had this problem when he set about the first dictionary of having to write things as they sounded taking into account regional dialects.
This is the process that Kernewek is now going through.
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Posted:
16.Jun 2005 - 14:19
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Posted:
16.Jun 2005 - 16:43
The putting down of English onto paper is why the spellings are sometimes way off the present-day pronunciation (e.g. the spelling of "Gloucester" reflects the way it was said a few hundred years ago, as the written word stayed fixed when the usage changed). Lots of languages have been updated and modernised: French, Irish, Norwegian, American English etc., which is why I'm not bothered about preserving precisely the Kernewek spellings of 400 years ago (which in any case were phonetic to the individual writers). Better to make it reflect current usage and be regular and easy to learn. Thanks to the variation of OUGH in Cough, Bough, Though, Through and Thought, I've also come round to being in favour of a very light touch of regularising within British English spellings... *ducks*
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Posted:
16.Jun 2005 - 17:15
But I find Common (Kemmyn), much better and more logical from a learning point of view. In fact, the more Cornish I learn the better Kemmyn actually seems.
However I'm just glad the language has more recognition and that as a whole it can continue to move forward, if need be using more than one spelling system.
Posts: 567
Posted:
16.Jun 2005 - 18:28
Not really. Two full time members of staff? Perhaps four on Cornish wages.
Posts: 196
Posted:
16.Jun 2005 - 20:06
It was only through John Angarrack that this money came about.
Now if they can all stop squabbling and work together, we might actually get somewhere.
Posts: 733
Posted:
16.Jun 2005 - 20:25
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Posted:
16.Jun 2005 - 21:48
http://www.agantavas.org.uk or
http://www.egt.ie/gram/ecd.html = UCR ( Unified Cornish Revised )
Posts: 880
Posted:
17.Jun 2005 - 13:03
Ding.
I reckon it'll be run as a lunchtime only course, probably with minimal attendance from the kids.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea, but I can't see the youth of today getting all that behind it.
Look at Latin for example, an incredibly useful language (albeit dead) not just for learning but the other applications are tremendously useful, too. And this has been dropped by and large due to a lack of demand.
Given the reluctance of most of the population to speak a second modern language, I'd be really really surprised for this to work.
Posts: 234
Posted:
18.Jun 2005 - 10:28
Cymraeg/The Welsh Language
Gaelg / The Manx Language
Gaidhlig / Gaelic in Scotland
An Ghaeilge/ The Irish Language
Guernesiais/Guernsey-French
Jèrriais / The Jersey Language
Ulstèr-Scotch / The Ulster Scots Language
http://www1.british-irishcouncil.org/work/language.asp
Posts: 4380
Posted:
18.Jun 2005 - 10:55
secretariat@british-irishcouncil.org
Dear Sir / Madam
I was just wondering if you could explain to me why Cornish is not included in the work done by your worthy organisation especially when you consider that Manx is.
Lowena dhys
FLB
Posts: 880
Posted:
18.Jun 2005 - 11:27
Good work.
Posts: 234
Posted:
18.Jun 2005 - 13:36
Mis Du 2002, wosa kaskyrgh a seyth blydhen gans kowethasow hag awtoritas leel kernewek, governans an Rywvaneth Unys a govskrifas Kernewek yn-dann Rann II Chartour Konsel Europa rag Yethow Rannvroek ha Nebes Kewsys. Yn-dann ambosow an Chartour, an governans yw omres dhe ‘selya y bolisis, laghow ha gwriansow’ war rol a naw amkanow ha dyskasow hag a styr, rag ensampel, aswonnans Kernewek avel derivas rychedh gonisogethek ha skoedhyans rag gweythres kolonnek dhe avonsya an taves. Bosva Kernewek avel arwoedh diblansneth rannvroek o elvenn boesek bos grontys dhe Gernow savla Amkan 1, ytho yma lies kettestenn yn lownow artow ha tornyaseth may hyllir gul devnydh anedha dhe ri talvosogeth keworrys erbysiethek ha gonisogethek. An re ma a allsa synsi arwoedhyow po kevrennow nes yntra tornyaseth ha’n yeth rag krevhe klywans bos Kernow ‘dyffrans’.
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/cornish/charter.htm
Posts: 228
Posted:
18.Jun 2005 - 13:56
ODPM said:
That makes 240 000 GBP directly from the Labour government and if match funding means equal funding the best part of half a million GBP over three years is available to start.
What exactly are who going to do with the money?[/quote]
Posts: 880
Posted:
18.Jun 2005 - 14:18
Posts: 711
Posted:
18.Jun 2005 - 14:23
As I understand it, the funding will be administered by Cornwall County Council, following an agreed development program that is indicated in the published Cornish Language Strategy.
This will enable the UK to begin to fulfill its legal commitments under European Charter for minority languages.
Posts: 4380
Posted:
19.Jun 2005 - 16:19
No its not a lot of money compared to other languages but lets be realistic the Cornish language is just a tiny acorn at the momment, there are more people that speak Urdu or Mandarin in the Duchy than Kernewek.
It's a huge improvement on the past, it is more money that will be spent in Kernow.
As to your criticism of my letter and question, i don't see your point really. Would you rather that i didn't bother writting to organisations in order to ask questions that i think deserve an answer, surely its the least i should do for things i care about?
Posts: 234
Posted:
25.Jun 2005 - 12:10
http://www.sgrud.org.uk/anfy/cornish2000/cornish2000_funding_sources.htm
Posts: 880
Posted:
26.Jun 2005 - 01:16
I'm as frustrated as you are about the lack of funding for languages, and the fact that Kernewek is being funded is, in my eyes, a good thing. Urdu and Mandarin are often taught at home through parents and friends (in my experience) and I think that this is the way that the teaching of Kernewek should go.
I have no experience in the field of project managing the spread of languages, so please accept my apologies as regards your letter.
Posts: 4380
Posted:
26.Jun 2005 - 14:20
Me neither but i am curious as to why the Cornish language is excluded from the work of the Britsih Irish council and asking them by e-mail seems like a good place to start.
secretariat@british-irishcouncil.org
Posts: 234
Posted:
23.Jul 2005 - 15:22
The government money is on the table and the political will in Whitehall and Europe is apparently growing to help Cornish speakers turn their native tongue into a viable, living language. But there is one stumbling block: Cornish speakers cannot agree on how their language should be spelt. Three main groups who have driven forward the revival of Cornish are at loggerheads over how the language should be written. The issue has become so divisive that yesterday two of the groups called for an independent panel of linguists to be appointed to referee the row.
A conference is being organised in September at which the warring factions will again try to agree on how Cornish - or, depending on your fancy, Kernewek, Kernowek, Kernuak or Curnoack - should be spelt. Until a single system is agreed, it will be difficult to launch a credible language programme across Cornwall. Disputes over issues such as road signs and place names will also continue to slow the spread of the language.
Last month the government announced that it would fund the language by up to £80,000 a year for three years - but the worry is that the cash flow will dry up if agreement over spelling cannot be found. Paul Dunbar, a director of a Cornish bookshop in Liskeard which stocks dictionaries, Bibles and children's books in one version of Cornish, said the development of the language was important at a time when many local people argue that they should have more independence from England. "The language has tremendous importance for Cornwall," Mr Dunbar said. "It's an icon of identity. It's the one thing that is uniquely, undeniably Cornish." He expressed frustration that the spelling problem was holding the language back: "There's certainly more heat than light in the debate." His feelings about the champions of rival systems? "It varies from murderous to totally pissed off."
The revival of Cornish began to gather pace in the 1920s when a version which came to be known as Unified Cornish was reconstructed using language found in medieval miracle plays and borrowing from related Celtic tongues such as Welsh and Breton. Forty years ago, as interest grew, the Cornish Language Board was formed. Some members felt Unified Cornish was inaccurate and came up with a new system, with different spellings, Common Cornish. In the mid 1980s, another splinter group set up the Cornish Language Council and championed a third system, Modern Cornish, based not on medieval manuscripts but the way the language was last spoken in the 1700s.
The row over whose system was best began in earnest. It has not yet come to blows, but the quality of debate has not always been scholarly.
The factions understand each other when they speak Cornish, but do not seem to comprehend why their rival groups insist that their spelling system is correct.
Ray Chubb, secretary of Agan Tavas (Our Language) which supports Unified Cornish and an updated version of it called Unified Cornish Revised, accused the supporters of Modern Cornish of "mucking around with historical sources" and claimed that Common Cornish speakers had the arrogant attitude that their system was perfect. George Ansell, a supporter of Common Cornish, said that version was easiest to teach. "If people can't agree, it will become a Darwinian situation - the survival of the fittest." Mr Ansell, who chairs a language strategy group set up by Cornwall county council, said the debate often became overly personal. "People have invested a lot of time and effort in the various forms and do not like to see their work challenged."
It is nigh on impossible to judge which group is best placed to survive, as nobody agrees on how many people use each version. In all, it is thought that several hundred people speak Cornish reasonably fluently and a few thousand have some knowledge of it. Two secondary schools and a handful of primary schools have begun to teach Cornish. Neil Kennedy, who is in the Modern Cornish camp, said: "It may sound absurd that a language which not many people speak has several different spellings, but that is what we face. We have to find a way of working together to sort it out."
The groups supporting Modern and Unified Cornish issued a statement yesterday saying that there was a "historic" opportunity for the movement to build a "thriving Cornish language", and called for an independent advisory panel. Professor Philip Payton, director of the Institute of Cornish Studies, said the dispute threatened long-term support from Westminster. "Some sort of agreement is necessary. Otherwise it gets confusing at best and at worst faintly ridiculous."
Origins in history of Celtic Britain
In 1935, listeners to the BBC were puzzled but interested by a music programme from Plymouth. When the BBC explained that the St Austell choir was singing in Cornish, it was bombarded by requests to know more. Even the Cornish seemed to have forgotten about their historic tongue.
Cornish is a direct descendent of the language spoken by Celts who settled in Britain before the Roman conquest.
As Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Norman invaders confined the Celts to Cornwall (as well as Wales, Scotland and Ireland), the language developed regional dialects.
By the 9th century, certainly, there is concrete evidence of a distinctive language in Cornwall, and it is believed that by 1200 it was spoken by most of its people.
But simultaneously, use of English was spreading into the east of Cornwall; the Reformation sped up the decline when Edward VI decreed that the Book of Common Prayer be used in Cornish churches; rebellions by the Cornish were put down.
By the start of the 17th century there were few monoglot speakers left, mostly in the far west. The reputed last one, Dolly Pentreath, died in 1777.
Bilingual speakers could be found until the late 19th century, but the region's sinking economic fortunes were mirrored by its language's continued decline.
Asked why the Cornish should learn Kernewek, the father of the revival movement, Henry Jenner (1848-1934), had a simple answer: "Because they are Cornish."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1534588,00.html
Posts: 272
Posted:
23.Jul 2005 - 21:00
The spelling dosent really matter - when Kernewek was more widely spoken i imagine most could not read or write at all!
Perhaps the Welsh should be asked to adjudicate?
Posts: 2538
Posted:
24.Jul 2005 - 00:10
Good points; it's quite a serious problem, especially with things like place names. I think the Irish would be better adjudicators as they have a better sense of humour (humor).
You might know that Kernewek is actually closer to Breton than Welsh.
The big debate will be certainly interesting and hopefully not self-defeating.
BTW welcome to the site.
Posts: 776
Posted:
24.Jul 2005 - 20:05
Posts: 234
Posted:
30.Jul 2005 - 10:14
"The Welsh Assembly Government has announced a package of measures aimed at supporting the development of Welsh medium provision in Higher Education. This includes almost £1m over three years to expand the provision."
http://www.eurolang.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2418&Itemid=1&lang=en
Posts: 2305
Posted:
31.Jul 2005 - 02:58
Which Cornish University would benefit from a million quid to teach Cornish language courses?
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Posted:
12.Feb 2006 - 01:45
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Posted:
12.Feb 2006 - 09:20
How many are there?
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Posted:
12.Feb 2006 - 18:23
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Posted:
12.Feb 2006 - 20:17
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Posted:
13.Feb 2006 - 10:45
There lies your problem. You'll never get anywhere trying to promote a Cornish revival with other people's money. You need to generate the money from inside Cornwall to give your cause some weight.
Posts: 928
Posted:
13.Feb 2006 - 10:59
Posts: 172
Posted:
13.Feb 2006 - 12:38
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Posted:
13.Feb 2006 - 13:57
Posts: 172
Posted:
13.Feb 2006 - 15:49
Seems like Cornwall is going the same way as North Wales is now in 20 years. Barren and bleak.
Posts: 259
Posted:
13.Feb 2006 - 18:25
:wink: Hooray, the future sounds pretty good!
Posts: 172
Posted:
13.Feb 2006 - 19:37
Posts: 2305
Posted:
13.Feb 2006 - 22:25
ROTFLMCO!!