Topic:	Cornwall/Dumnonia?
Allister Posts: 577 Posted: 2.Apr 2008 - 19:53	Can the Cornish history buffs help us out with this one please..... From Wikipedia... Quote Dumnonia was a Brythonic kingdom of sub-Roman Britain, located in the south-west peninsula of modern England and covering Devon, most of Somerset and possibly part of Dorset, its eastern boundary being uncertain. Cornwall may or may not have been part of Dumnonia. Cornwall may or may not have been part of Dumnonia. If it wasn't a part of Dumnonia what was it, and more specifically, what was it called? Cheers edited by: Allister, Apr 02, 2008 - 07:54 PM I am awake at 4am to the terrifying undeniable truth that there is nothing I can do to stop the monster
marhak Posts: 3892 Posted: 2.Apr 2008 - 20:53	Yes, Cornwall was part of Dumnonia but, it seems, a named entity within Dumnonia. Charles Thomas doesn't think that the kingdom of Dumnonia existed before Roman occupation, but I differ here. Even on Caesar's two brief visits nearly a century earlier than the Claudian invasion, he noted kings and kingdoms in Britain's south-east, so I can't see why a south-western one would not have been in existence as well. The Romans didn't take long to get down this way and they named their new fort at Exeter Isca Dumnoniorum, a Latinisation of the Celtic name whch includes the Dumnonian name, so Dumnonia must have existed beforehand. The name of Cornwall appears in a place name in the Ravenna Cosmography (an itinerary of various routes), compiled around 700 AD from a source c. 400 AD. The names in this list are badly corrupted but "Purocoronavis" has been corrected to "Durocornovio" ('fortress of the Cornish'), now identified as Tintagel. In modern Cornish, this would translate as Dyn Kernowyon (and I strongly urge language users to adopt this for Tintagel Island - if only to totally stick a finger in the eye of my dear friends at 'English' Heritage'!). If you bear in mind that, in Latin, V is pronounced as a W, there, in the middle of that name is Cornow. Welsh sources called our mid-6th century king Constantine 'Custennin Gorneu' (Constantine the Cornishman). That Celtic pronunciation of the name explains the (almost forgotten) traditional pronunciation of the village name and also explains the origin of the surname Cossentine - (man of) Constantine, in the same way that Maddern is (man of) Madron parish. When King Doniert (Donyarth) was drowned in 875, the Welsh Easter Annals described him as 'rex cerniu' (king of Cornwall). Bear in mind that these examples of Cornwall's native name were all recorded before the name 'England' ever existed - the earliest mention that name, as 'Englaland' is in 890. The modern spelling, Kernow, is first recorded c.1400(so it ain't that modern). I hope this helps, Allister. edited by: marhak, Apr 02, 2008 - 07:59 PM
Allister Posts: 577 Posted: 2.Apr 2008 - 22:19	QuoteI hope this helps, Allister. Indeed it does, very interesting. Have you written anything about Cornish history, either in reality or online? It would be a good read. Cheers. I am awake at 4am to the terrifying undeniable truth that there is nothing I can do to stop the monster
marhak Posts: 3892 Posted: 2.Apr 2008 - 23:01	Um, yes, I have. I write fairly regularly in Cornish World, and have just finished a new book on Cornish archaeological sites called Return to Cornovia (to replace my first two, Belerion and Cornovia), and it's bang up to date (even has Cornwall's THIRD Roman fort - it was only found in February! The second one, which also features, was found last summer - where? No. 2 is a few hundred yards from Restormel Castle. No. 3 surrounds Calstock church). Interesting siting, all three (no. 1, as most will know is at Nanstallon. Bodmin). All 3 on a commanding hillspur overlooking the W side of a major estuary; all three close to the (then) highest navigable points of the three estuaries (Camel, Fowey and Tamar); and all three close to mineral lodes. Any bets against them having taken over total control of sea-going trade, particularly exports of metals? I wonder what the west side of the Fal is hiding? Or was Carvossa (or the hill fort at Golden) doing that job? My writing tasks resume next week, with - at last - finishing the third of the Trevelyan trilogy (after The Lyonesse Stone and Seat of Storms, The Tinners' Way is bigger than the first two and is 3/4 complete). I'd have written this long ago but, s*t happens in life - with me it all happened at once and I couldn't write a word for several years. Now, I'm trying to make up for lost time. I've got a complete MS about the Penwith Moors as well, just need the photos and a publisher. Then, hopefully before too long, my magnum opus 'Nautilus', which, as the name suggests, is a serious second sequel to the two Jules Verne classics, except that it's set more or less in the present and is a maritime thriller with a strongly environmental theme. And, of course, the star of the show - the 140 year old submarine itself (having survived the Lincoln Island eruption at the end of The Mysterious Island) It would run to something like 500 pages in a paperback (and I really would like a film-maker to read it - wouldn't that be the icing on the cake? Still, if you don't try, you don't get). Locations all over the globe: Antarctica, Krakatau, the Canary Isles, the Maelstrom off the Lofoten Islands - even a shoot-out on the cliffs at Botallack and a car-bomb in London. 15 years in researching it, writing it and trying to push it to publishers. Now, with all that, the language and the horses as well, who called me lazy? edited by: marhak, Apr 02, 2008 - 10:13 PM*
Palores Posts: 291 Posted: 3.Apr 2008 - 08:19	marhakYes, Cornwall was part of Dumnonia Have you any evidence for this assertion? I say that it was not, but have no evidence.
marhak Posts: 3892 Posted: 3.Apr 2008 - 09:10	Well, I can recommend Susan Pearce's "The Kingdom of Dumnonia", which was published by Donald Rawe's Lodenek Press. It's probably out of print now but libraries and 2nd hand bookshops might have it. Also Charles Thomas's "Celtic Britain" and "And Shall these Mute Stones Speak" - superb book about inscribed stones but there's a lot about Dumnonia in there. Another one by Charles Thomas is "The Characters and Origins of Roman Dumnonia" in the Council for British Archaeology's Research Report 7, 1966. Both of the Cornish kings named Gerent have distinct Cornish identities and the second one was addressed by the Synod of Wessex in 705 as king of Dumnonia. After that, the Anglo-Saxons of Wessex never used the name, preferring to call Dumnonia "West Wealas". It seems that by the early 9th century, when Ecgberht was being a pain in our backsides, Dumnonia's border had shrunk back from the Axe-Parrott line to the Taw-Exe one (and it seems that it stayed there until Athelstan 100 years later). Sometime between 705 and 815 the name Dumnonia seems to have fallen out of use and, in the late 9th century we see Donyarth referred to as "rex cerniu", from which I assume that the land west of the Exe-Taw line was now the kingdom of Kernow. The problem, Palores, is that there is too little in the way of written record from that period to be absolutely certain of my belief, or of other thoughts on the matter but the kings of Kernow and the kings of Dumnonia seem to have been the same. Nowhere is there is any mention or even hint that Kernow had one king and Dumnonia another.
KarlT Posts: 60 Posted: 3.Apr 2008 - 14:35	Although the term "Dumnonia" fell out of use, it should be remembered that it persists in both "Devon" and, more obviously, in the Welsh and Cornish forms of the word, (Dyfnaint, and however the SWF renders the Cornish cognate)
goky Posts: 1828 Posted: 3.Apr 2008 - 14:43	Dewbnams? The blog The Great Goky Blog
pietercharles Posts: 520 Posted: 3.Apr 2008 - 15:00	gokyDewbnams? No, that's a department store over here.
Mike Posts: 2674 Posted: 3.Apr 2008 - 15:12	Dumplonia?
trevarth Posts: 100 Posted: 3.Apr 2008 - 18:28	Don't forget the Cornonii !! (West Welsh) "The Cornovii were a Celtic tribe who inhabited the far South West peninsula of Great Britain, during the Iron Age, Roman and post-Roman periods and gave their name to Cornwall or Kernow. The Ravenna Cosmography, of around 700, makes reference to Purocoronavis, (almost certainly a corruption of Durocornovium), 'a fort or walled settlement of the Cornovii', (unidentified, but possibly Tintagel or Carn Brea). According to professor Philip Payton, in "Cornwall: A History", the Cornovii were most likely a sect or offshoot of the Dumnonii tribe whose territory included modern day Cornwall, Devon, western parts of Somerset and perhaps the fringes of Dorset. The Cornovii were sufficiently established for their territory to be recorded as Cornubia by c700AD" http://en.wikip...28Cornish%29
marhak Posts: 3892 Posted: 3.Apr 2008 - 19:34	Not sure about that map - why isn't Cornwall differently coloured - at least as far east as the Exe-Taw line. It makes it look as though we were part of Wessex which we never were. Anglo-twistory again.
TheElvenLord online Posts: 956 Posted: 3.Apr 2008 - 19:44	English channel? Its British Sea? And the Cornovii tribe stretched to Exe-Taw as MArhak says !! TEL Everything is impossible until it is not.
trevarth Posts: 100 Posted: 4.Apr 2008 - 21:34	marhakNot sure about that map - why isn't Cornwall differently coloured - at least as far east as the Exe-Taw line. It makes it look as though we were part of Wessex which we never were. Anglo-twistory again. Yes, this one's probably more accurate as up until at least 838 (Hingston Down, Moretonhampstead), Cornovia (Kernow) stretched to the Exe-Taw and it wasn't until 936 that Cornwall's eastern boundary was fixed at the Tamar.. edited by: trevarth, Apr 04, 2008 - 09:36 PM
marhak Posts: 3892 Posted: 5.Apr 2008 - 07:55	Yes, that's more like it. Interesting how Cumbria/Rheged is shown to extend a lot further south on this map, too. Do you think that my theory that "Hengestesdun" was near Moretonhampstead and not W of the Tamar is a more realistic proposal? I don't think that Egberht had much of a chance to follow up on that victory. I think he just dealt with the threat and had rather more on his mind, like Viking incursions elsewhere. In any case, he was dead within a year of Hengestesdun. But, according to the Anglocentric "historians", he then conquered Cornwall. Funny that none of the available sources even come close to making any such claim, or even hint at it.
shrdlu Posts: 241 Posted: 5.Apr 2008 - 16:56	marhakDo you think that my theory that "Hengestesdun" was near Moretonhampstead and not W of the Tamar is a more realistic proposal? Yr arguments sounded fair in Bys Kernowyon.
TheElvenLord online Posts: 956 Posted: 5.Apr 2008 - 17:45	Definitely The arguements there are full. TEL Everything is impossible until it is not.
trevarth Posts: 100 Posted: 5.Apr 2008 - 19:18	Quote marhakDo you think that my theory that "Hengestesdun" was near Moretonhampstead and not W of the Tamar is a more realistic proposal? definately ! http://en.wikip...own%2C_Devon
gravydave Posts: 480 Posted: 5.Apr 2008 - 21:35	marhak The problem, Palores, is that there is too little in the way of written record from that period to be absolutely certain of This seems to be paradoxical, you make up your history and then say the above. Onan hag oll NEW CORNISH
marhak Posts: 3892 Posted: 6.Apr 2008 - 08:46	In what way have I "made up" history, Dave? Thanks, you guys, for the vote of confidence in my Hengestesdun argument. I did expect a lot of opposition to it as the Hingston Down, Callington, assumption has been so firmly entrenched for so long. edited by: marhak, Apr 06, 2008 - 07:49 AM
CJenkin Posts: 746 Posted: 6.Apr 2008 - 11:10	Hey Marhak _ I independently to you also came up with exactly the same viewpoint that ?Hingston down was near moretonhampstead and mentioned it way back along on here. I hope you think that great minds think alike. Some other evidence that would back up Moretonhampstead being the correct location. Its on the main road to Exeter and a great place for an ambush. In order to intercept a Cornish Danish invasion you would expect it to take place in English territory. At the time it was recorded in ASC it is unlikely that Hingston Down in Cornwall would have had an English name as it would have been ouside of the english sphere of influence. Whereas Hingston Down, Moreton hampstead would easily have been named in English especially as located on the down are some stones that would have been associated with Hengest as a mythical ancient god. The Earliest reference to Hingston Down in Cornwall doesn't occur until the Middle Ages Why? How did it get its name? Well there is a Hingston family well established early on in the South Hams - probably named after Moretonhampstead - no such family in Cornwall. So quite likely at a later date one of that family came into ownership of the land by the Tamar and called it in English Hingston Down. The Earliest reference to Cornish site being the battle site seems to be 16th century with nothing to back it up and WG Hoskins followed it and everybody has followed him since despite the fact that many of his battle site attributions are now widely contradicted.
marhak Posts: 3892 Posted: 6.Apr 2008 - 12:54	Yo, Conan - I'd been working on where Hengestesdun could possibly have been for a while and put a write-up in Cornish World about 6 months ago. I even contacted OJP but he was dismissive (unfortunately, he belongs to the Todd - Hoskins - Ravenhill school who are adamant that Cornwall was conquered by Wessex and even make up "facts" to push their case). Todd is a prime example of what I call Anglo-supremacist twistory. Take the battle of Gafalforda in 825, for instance. There's only one source for this: the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles which simply say: "The West Wealas and the men of Devon fought at Gafalforda (which may or may not have been Galford, near Lydford -we don't know for certain)". That's all it says. No mention of whether the two were on the same side or fighting each other. It doesn't say who won or who lost. It doesn't mention any individuals. Now look at what Todd writes: "A rebellion by the Cornish failed when they were defeated by Ecgberht at Gafulford". Er, what 'rebellion' and how can an independent kingdom rebel against foreign aggression? What defeat? Oh, and now Ecgberht himself was there, was he? This sort of garbage is what our kids are taught at school because, when Todd wrote that in 1987, he was Professor of Archaeology at the University of Exeter and, therefore, his word is sacrosanct.
gravydave Posts: 480 Posted: 6.Apr 2008 - 17:55	marhakIn what way have I "made up" history, Dave? Thanks, you guys, for the vote of confidence in my Hengestesdun argument. I did expect a lot of opposition to it as the Hingston Down, Callington, assumption has been so firmly entrenched for so long.edited by: marhak, Apr 06, 2008 - 07:49 AM My inaccuracy and as you say yourself it's your argument, so I would be right in saying it's a theory you have. Thanks for clearing that up. gravydave Onan hag oll NEW CORNISH
marhak Posts: 3892 Posted: 7.Apr 2008 - 08:31	Absolutely, it is a theory but I do have good arguments for it. Often, challenging old ideas and long-lived assumptions is not a popular move. It's like trying to persuade people that the myth of Phoenician traders coming to Cornwall is just that - a myth invented by an Elizabethan schoolmaster called John Twynne who thought it an attractive idea. So did others and it caught on. But there's absolutely no evidence for it. None at all. Nonetheless, it's hard to dissuade many people who were taught it at school and still hear it trotted out in books and on television.
pdunbar Posts: 245 Posted: 7.Apr 2008 - 15:43	I am not challenging your theory, Craig (unfortunately I have not seen your article so cannot comment on it) but there is a place name nearby which appears to support a Danish connection. The Ordanance survey in their usual way record it as 'Danescombe' whereas any non-emmet from Calstock, Gunnislake, St Dominick, Bohetherick etc. will tell you that it is 'Danicombe' (spell it how you will, three syllables and the 'i' as in 'inn' tending to schwa). Without researching the attested forms of this place name I would hazard Danek + Coombe/cwm/coom/komm etc. 'Danish Valley' (with archaic word order). However, you may have researched this one? I was once told by one of the Flashmans that there are burial mounds at Sevenstones 'where the Cornish and Danish dead from the battle are buried'. Again, fascinating though it is I have not researched it and it could well be all Flashman's own idea. Has it been dug? Any information on this? - Pawl
gravydave Posts: 480 Posted: 7.Apr 2008 - 17:45	marhakPhoenician traders coming to Cornwall is just that - a myth And you don't agree with this http://phoenicia.org/britmines.html Onan hag oll NEW CORNISH
marhak Posts: 3892 Posted: 8.Apr 2008 - 09:28	The historical forms of the name bear out your condemnation of the Ordnance Survey (which has a lot to answer for in misrepresenting place names not only in Cornwall but Dartmoor as well - Eric Hemery spent years trying to persuade them that they had got many names wrong. I have a Dartmoor map with place names corrected by Hemery. Quite an eye opener). Anyway, back to "Danescombe". This was Donecombe 1337, Dounecoumbe 1341, Dounecombe 1357, Downecombeshed 1461, Danycombe brygge 1473. The 1341,1357 and 1461 examples suggest that the first element is OE dun, "hill, down", so OE duna-cumb, "valley among downs/hills". There has been some archaeological work on Kit Hill but not Hingston Down as far as I know. In the 9th century, flat cemeteries were the fashion, not mounds. I believe that there are Bronze Age barrows close by. edited by: marhak, Apr 08, 2008 - 08:32 AM
marhak Posts: 3892 Posted: 8.Apr 2008 - 09:40	No, I don't, Gravy Dave. Herodotus writes of the "Cassiterides" but does identify them with anywhere other than the Atlantic coasts of Europe. By the time Carthage was up and running, the old Phoenicians had become Carthaginians and even then, we can't prove that any Punic ship ever went further north than Cadiz. The list of kings given in the article comes straight from Geoffrey of Monmouth and the firm assertion that Britsh tin was used to embellish the temple of Solomon is absurd - no one has ever found that temple, let alone known what was in it.