Topic:	Local Government Act 1888
P_Trembath online Posts: 1080 Posted: 1.May 2008 - 22:47	I have read somewhere, I can't remember where it might even have been here, that the Local Government Act 1888, setting up County Councils, did not make provision for Cornwall, and Cornwall was added the fol owing year. 1/ Have I misunderstood what I read? 2/ If not, what was the reason for the delay? I have tried to find out on the Internet, but the only thing I found was that the Isles of Scilly were made a unitary authority (?) in 1889. Kernow Kensa! Our day will come! "Everyone has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
moonshine Posts: 1171 Posted: 1.May 2008 - 23:06	I think that is true.
morvran online Posts: 1439 Posted: 1.May 2008 - 23:47	I'm sure I saw a copy of an act (years ago) setting up Cornwall 'County' Council. What stuck in my mind was the second or third provision which stated that the CCC would have no authority whatsoever over the Dutchy. Is this correct? Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
marhak Posts: 4470 Posted: 1.May 2008 - 23:58	I have a sneaking suspicion that Cornwall wasn't added until a year later because London needed to assess the effect of the mass emigration from Cornwall, after the collapse of mining. In other words - who was left to offer up any real opposition to their nefarious intentions? When they realised that Cornish people still in residence were too few and too poor to offer any meaningful resistance, England took full advantage, illegally relegating us to a mere "county". Lord Kilbrandon latched onto this in 1973 when, in his report into local government reorganisation, he featured the questionable legality of the imposed "county" status and recommended that Cornwall be referred to as a Duchy and not a county (BBC, District and "County" Councils, please note, and note well). edited by: marhak, May 01, 2008 - 11:00 PM
P_Trembath online Posts: 1080 Posted: 2.May 2008 - 00:46	marhakI have a sneaking suspicion that Cornwall wasn't added until a year later........... So it is true then. Was it just Cornwall, and the IoS, or were there any other Councils that were "late"? Where would one look to find any information on this? marhak..............because London needed to assess the effect of the mass emigration from Cornwall, after the collapse of mining. In other words - who was left to offer up any real opposition to their nefarious intentions? When they realised that Cornish people still in residence were too few and too poor to offer any meaningful resistance, England took full advantage, illegally relegating us to a mere "county". Was there any input from the Duke? What confuses me, is that although I can see reasons for the Duke to want to "play" his position down regarding Cornwall now, I see no reason for him wanting, or needing, to then. His position as a de facto "king", ruling Cornwall, would not have been thought out of the ordinary at that time, surly? In fact, I would have thought that it would have been in his interests, at the time, to have maintained the full public face of his position. Kernow Kensa! Our day will come! "Everyone has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
Kerrow Posts: 336 Posted: 2.May 2008 - 05:14	This is on the thisiscornwall Wikikernow site: "Cornwall has never officially been made a county, the official title is Duchy and should be refered to as such as stated in the Kilbrandon report of 1973. In 1888, an agreement was formed between the then government and the Duke of Cornwall that Cornwall would run in a ‘county style’ way but was never formally granted county status. The official status of Cornwall within the United Kingdom, is that of Duchy." I would love to know if 'county style' was an actual quote.
Hunlef Posts: 2092 Posted: 2.May 2008 - 08:11	Although the Duchy would most certainly have been involved in the process in 1888/9, it was not the reason why Cornwall alone became subject to the Act, one year after everyone else. The reason was much simpler. Just like today, the then leaders of the political make-up of the proposed county council could not decide on who was best placed for leadership. There followed an almighty squabble that was not resolved until at least twelve months after the English counties had sorted themselves out. The delay was for no other reason than this. 'Condemnation without investigation is ignorance' - Albert Einstein
P_Trembath online Posts: 1080 Posted: 2.May 2008 - 10:32	HunlefThe reason was much simpler. Just like today, the then leaders of the political make-up of the proposed county council could not decide on who was best placed for leadership. There followed an almighty squabble that was not resolved until at least twelve months after the English counties had sorted themselves out. The delay was for no other reason than this. Where could I find out more about this? Would this be mentioned in the local press of the day? So far, 3 answers, with 3 different reasons. Kernow Kensa! Our day will come! "Everyone has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
TGG Posts: 1119 Posted: 2.May 2008 - 11:39	I have never come across anything definitive about the 'year later' conundrum other than someone making the point that it was nothing to do with the Duchy connection. For anyone wishing to do the mysteriously un-done legwork, I would suggest that it means reading through old press reports, a FOI request to Cornwall Council for 'The Reason Why?', a FOI request to the Department of Constitutional Affairs and a FOI (although it will deny any such obligation) request to the Duchy of Cornwall for means by which something vested in the Duchy (i.e. the civil government of Cornwall) had been alienated from the Duchy and transferred to the Crown. What Cornwall needs is a Kernocentric academic institution that might feel some obligation to research into such Curious Cornish Conundrums. I have carried out the 2nd and 4th items and the response is on the TGG website. That, however, was long before the Freedom of Information Act but might well be worth checking out for the appropriate wording of the request, in the light of the new times that we live in. TGG For The (Real)Reason Why! STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE!- The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within the UK.
TeamKernow online Posts: 2319 Posted: 2.May 2008 - 20:19	Does the Proposed Toytown non-Unitary Authority therefore offer the best current opportunity for the constitutional status of Cornwall to be challenged,asserted, and brought to the fore in the public eye through a legal challenge by, say, the C.S.P. +/- MK ? edited by: TeamKernow, May 04, 2008 - 08:40 PM
morvran online Posts: 1439 Posted: 2.May 2008 - 22:26	It looks then as though the deal that was stitched up was that London could treat Cornwall as a de facto English county for day-to-day administrative purposes, but the real constitutional position was not changed, in particular the Dutchy's powers could not be challanged by the 'county' administration. This probably means that the 'county' exists at the dutchy's pleasure, since otherwise they'd have to do all the boring local government administration. Effectively the dutchy is a sort of absentee landlord who's delegated everyday management to London/the CCC. Can anyone find the act I was looking at. It might well be on line these days?
TGG Posts: 1119 Posted: 4.May 2008 - 21:39	Morvran, I have a copy of the Act of 1888 somewhere but cannot find it at the moment. However, in most of the Parliamentary Acts that impinge upon Cornwall there is usually a 'saving' clause to protect the Duchy. The Sheriff's Act 1887, for example, contains the following :- Quote"Saving for the Duchy of Cornwall - 37. Nothing in this Act shgall be prejudicial to the rights of the Crown in right of the Duchy of Cornwall, or to the Duke of Cornwall when there is a Duke of Cornwall." Also worth remembering that the civil administration/government of Cornwall is vested in the Duchy - not the Crown. TGG For The (Real)Reason Why! edited by: TGG, May 04, 2008 - 09:41 PM STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE!- The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within the UK.
Kerrow Posts: 336 Posted: 4.May 2008 - 22:16	Is this it? http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc= /uk/legis/num_act/1888/1060632.html&query= local+and+government+and+act+and+1888&method= boolean It's an Act that has undergone an awful lot of changes. (the) British and Irish Legal Information Institute - www.bailii.org - is a very useful source of legal information
morvran online Posts: 1439 Posted: 4.May 2008 - 23:17	Thank you TGG, that looks like what I remember seeing. I was beginning to wonder if I'd imagined it. I am however very confused by all of this, as I'm sure is nearly everyone else. Normally government bureaucrats, legal officers etc. are very insistent that everything is "done by the book". How then can we have such an apparent mismatch between the _de jury_ and _de facto_ position of Cornwall? Under what authority for example do all the various crown bodies operate, from the CPS to English Heritage. Do they have some sort of special warrent from the Duchy? What is the position of Cornish MPs? Basically I can't see the point of all this 'deception'. The UK can tolerate the presence of separate crown dependencies like the IoM and the Channel Isles, so why go to all this trouble to cover up Cornwall's apparent consitutional position? Or has it all come out of the fevered imagination of a few people who don't get out enough?
TGG Posts: 1119 Posted: 5.May 2008 - 11:11	Kerrow, thanks for the link. It did not work because it had been broken at each line break. This is the completed link. It is not the original that I remember but is useful for bringing it up to date with the relevant amendments. It is a very complicated document. I obtained my original backalong via the HMSO (as it was then) and British Library. TGG For The (Real)Reason Why! edited by: TGG, May 05, 2008 - 11:11 AM STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE!- The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within the UK.
TGG Posts: 1119 Posted: 5.May 2008 - 11:49	morvran - Posted: 04.05.2008, 23:17Thank you TGG, that looks like what I remember seeing. I was beginning to wonder if I'd imagined it. I am however very confused by all of this, as I'm sure is nearly everyone else. Normally government bureaucrats, legal officers etc. are very insistent that everything is "done by the book". How then can we have such an apparent mismatch between the _de jury_ and _de facto_ position of Cornwall? Under what authority for example do all the various crown bodies operate, from the CPS to English Heritage. Do they have some sort of special warrent from the Duchy? What is the position of Cornish MPs? Basically I can't see the point of all this 'deception'. The UK can tolerate the presence of separate crown dependencies like the IoM and the Channel Isles, so why go to all this trouble to cover up Cornwall's apparent consitutional position? Or has it all come out of the fevered imagination of a few people who don't get out enough? The vicecomitatus (aka shrievalty or sheriffdom, and now modern county) was the first item to be enumerated in the first Duchy Charter and, as with all other things was "annexed and united to the aforesaid Duchy" (it having already been created!) forever without being given elsewhere. When there was any alienation of the 'private' estate this was either illegally done and, consequently, recoverable by legal claim of right, or legally done by the use of an Act of Parliament "Disannexing" the item and another "Annexing" Act to replace it with something of equivalent value. Therefore, it seems a reasonable assumption to expect similar legal treatment for something as important as the civil government of both the Duchy of Cornwall and the Cornish Nation. Had this been readily available as evidence to be brought forward, then it would have been done long ago. It would also have legally prevented the Royal Commission on the Constitution in 1972 recommending a greater use of the 'Duchy of Cornwall' to appease the call by MK, at that time, for greater constitutional accomodation for Cornwall. When the proposed book on Cornish Law is eventually published, then we can look at things a bit differently. A layman's view of it is given on the TGG website under Pro-Cornish Actions [Constitution]. Take a look at the 'Genocide' pages for good measure, because it completes the picture. TGG For The (Real)Reason Why! STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE!- The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within the UK.
TGG Posts: 1119 Posted: 5.May 2008 - 22:22	I have received the following from a very reliable source, which sets the record straight on 'the delay'. TGG For The (Real)Reason Why! -----copy of email---------- "I see on the C24 site people putting all sorts of spin on Cornwall county government coming in one year later. There is no mystery. I have read the West Briton. The delay was because of rivalry between Truro and Bodmin both wanting county town status and both wanting to be home to the new administration. Its as simple as that." --------end of email------------- STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE!- The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within the UK.
GrahamHart Posts: 1122 Posted: 6.May 2008 - 00:38	QuoteI have read the West Briton. The delay was because of rivalry between Truro and Bodmin both wanting county town status and both wanting to be home to the new administration. Its as simple as that." Tell us more " Reliable source ". What is the date of the Archive you are referring to ? , if that is the case. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where there's a Negative - there's always a Positive. You just have to find it. Love your enemy - It really does piss them off.
TGG Posts: 1119 Posted: 6.May 2008 - 01:16	Graham, if my informant reads the request and responds, I shall post it here. The issues between Bodmin & Truro at that time were definitely focussed on the fact that Truro was to become a Cathedral City (construction started in 1880). Bodmin's failure to have a mainline railway station in the town also acted against its best interests. TGG For The (Real)Reason Why! STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE!- The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within the UK.
GrahamHart Posts: 1122 Posted: 6.May 2008 - 01:30	Thanks Jim. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where there's a Negative - there's always a Positive. You just have to find it. Love your enemy - It really does piss them off.
TGG Posts: 1119 Posted: 6.May 2008 - 09:57	Graham, dates not recorded because the information was not contentious. The news reports were easy to find at the Cornish Studies Library (They might be able to pinpoint the references for you) and on the front pages of the WB. Try here for some target dates [1876-1889]. Also here if you want a read TGG edited 13:45 6th May to add links edited by: TGG, May 06, 2008 - 01:47 PM STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE!- The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within the UK.
Fulub-le-Breton Posts: 4667 Posted: 6.May 2008 - 20:29	People might find this site useful; info4local: http://www.info4local.gov.uk/ The Cornish Democrat The Breton Connection