Topic:	CELTIC DEVON
gravydave Posts: 114 Posted: 9.May 2008 - 10:25	Should devon be included in the fight for a Celtic nation? see here GD edited by: gravydave, May 09, 2008 - 10:35 AM Onan hag oll
Mike Posts: 2139 Posted: 9.May 2008 - 11:49	Devon's Celtic claims are very exaggerated and do not reflect any main stream culture. The residual Celtic past is present in many English counties, but all have been virtually totally subsumed by Anglo culture. For example Cornwall's place names are approximately 80% Celtic. Devon and many of the other English counties have a much lower proportion, many of dubious or ambiguous origin. Shame really, another few miles and they'd all have been perfect.
Coady Posts: 1657 Posted: 9.May 2008 - 13:13	Devon effectively WAS Cornwall hundreds of years ago, with the probable boundary as the Exe river in the south and the Taw in the north. DNA of truly local people from families who have stayed in one area for generations SUGGEST that not just Devon, but MUCH of England still has a lot of early British DNA, and that the idea that Angles Saxons (et al) "drove the celts westward" is currently not favoured by many historians. I don't care what sort of identity Devon wants to claim for itself. Let them get on with it. (after all, being cynical, its probably mainly "PR" for tourism.) Historically and scientifically the use of the word "Celtic" is (searching for the right word.....)--suspect (?) these days, and for some people the term merely conjures up a mish-mash of mysticism, myth and romantic wishful thinking, which I don't think does modern Cornwall's image a lot of good. The whole "celtic" thing in Cornwall has been overplayed in my opinion. I say let Devon claim everything "Celtic" they want, find a likely site up there for Camelot, have the piskeys, the knackers, help themselves to a tartan or two, (They've already got their own Stannaries). -Perhaps then some of the more gullible tourists will stay east of the Tamar! We live in interesting times.
Trevorpen Posts: 107 Posted: 9.May 2008 - 15:27	Interesting point GD. One of the most recent surveys, found that the greatest density of people with celtic DNA was actually just between Swindon and Glastonbury. So any one of these counties, like Cornwall can rightfully claim celtin heritage. I agree with Coady, about the overplaying of the celtic thing in Cornwall - tartans and even the flag are recent add ons. What is wrong with the splendid and well established Cornish coat of arms with the motto 'One and all'?
CJenkin Posts: 652 Posted: 9.May 2008 - 15:38	The prevailing historical viewpoint is to try to not use celtic when referring to archaelogical remains but associate with areas that have a common linguistic root in modern times. DNA really has little to do with it. From that perspective Cornwall is and was linguistically celtic in modern times - Devon most certainly was not. The celtic regions share some similarities but also many substantial differences. Celtic is a useful shorthand for highlighting the similarities. Celtic heritage can't reasonably be claimed by people with ancient DNA heritage.
TheElvenLord Posts: 621 Posted: 9.May 2008 - 16:23	I don't like saying this but... you sound like Englishmen about Cornwall. If it wants Inedependace aswell, let it. To the 'Celtic' debate. Yes, things in Britain can be called Celtic as all Britain was Celtic, not just the corners. If a person call claim Celtic ancestry they are Celtic, if they cannot, they are not. Simple. That would be like calling yourself native American Indian and your family is actually from France! Devon was Cornwall - Fact Devon was Celtic - Fact Devon is Celtic - Debatable Lets look at both sides here Arguements FOR Devon being Celtic - It was a Celtic nation as was Cornwall - It was part of Cornwall - It has/had a Celtic language (Cornish/Dumnonian?) - It had its own Stannary parliament, as did we - They were included in the Charter of Pardon (i believe, was it?) Arguement AGAINST Devon being Celtic - It wasn't described in old writings as a seperate people's - It doesnt have its own Celtic language - It doesnt have (many?) Celtic ruins/sites - It doesnt have wide support If i have missed any, say, i will edit TEL My a gar boos
Kéighlán Posts: 153 Posted: 10.May 2008 - 01:25	[quote=Coady]Devon effectively WAS Cornwall hundreds of years ago, with the probable boundary as the Exe river in the south and the Taw in the north. Actually....wasn't the entire island of England Once upon a time Kernow? maybe not of the same tribes and such, but certainly Celts before the Vikings, Saxons, Romans, French arrived. And cant remember where, but someone said that ''the clets were pushed into the undesirable places of the British isles'' Absoloutely untrue, Scotland, Wales and Kernow are some of the most beutiful places in the British isles. England does have some places of magnificent beuty but not to the extent of the highlands or snowdonia, well....Poole is gorgeous and so are the cotswolds. edited by: Kéighlán, May 10, 2008 - 01:29 AM K.c
joaniewillett Posts: 596 Posted: 10.May 2008 - 10:56	In contemporary studies about nationalism, culture, identity and ethnicity are seperated from things like DNA. This is because the practices associated with culture and ethnicity are derived from practices associated with a geographical area and how a People live, work and interact on the territory which they inhabit. This means that the people of Cornwall, both more recent migrants as well as persons with a long family history in a place can have a way of life and set of understandings (and therefore culture) that are different to a neighbouring territory, even if technically there are some genetic similarities between the two. Therefore, it is far more logical for someone who has lived in Cornwall for a while, comes to identify with the place and call it home to consider themselves a part of Cornish culture, than someone who's ancestors have a Cornish Celtic DNA but have never visited or perhaps even shown an interest in the region. Therefore, it seems to me that debates about DNA are of little real value. Its widely accepted that borders are highly artificial in human terms. So what if people in Devon have Celtic DNA. Its more important to show that they've got a distinct culture to the English, Saxon set of understandings and values.
TGG Posts: 948 Posted: 10.May 2008 - 14:52	joaniewillett - Posted: 10.05.2008, 10:56...Therefore, it seems to me that debates about DNA are of little real value. Its widely accepted that borders are highly artificial in human terms. So what if people in Devon have Celtic DNA. Its more important to show that they've got a distinct culture to the English, Saxon set of understandings and values. Absolutely right Joanie. Considering what DNA tells us, there can be no such concept as 'Celtic', or 'Saxon', or any other DNA. The whole discussion can only ever be about negative festering and nothing at all to do with personality, aspiration, sensitivity, self-awareness, integrity or affiliations. TGG For The (Real)Reason Why! The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within this island.
TGG Posts: 948 Posted: 10.May 2008 - 14:54	TEL, check out the TGG page on "Devon & Wessex". TGG For The (Real)Reason Why! The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within this island.
Hunlef Posts: 1214 Posted: 11.May 2008 - 23:49	TheElvenLord Lets look at both sides here Arguements FOR Devon being Celtic - It was a Celtic nation as was Cornwall - It was part of Cornwall - It has/had a Celtic language (Cornish/Dumnonian?) - It had its own Stannary parliament, as did we - They were included in the Charter of Pardon (i believe, was it?) Arguement AGAINST Devon being Celtic - It wasn't described in old writings as a seperate people's - It doesnt have its own Celtic language - It doesnt have (many?) Celtic ruins/sites - It doesnt have wide support If i have missed any, say, i will edit TEL The Charter of Pardon did not apply to the Devonshire Stannaries.
Coady Posts: 1657 Posted: 12.May 2008 - 11:28	Had the Devonshire Stannaries been suspended like the Cornish one, or was it just Cornwall's that had been suspended? I understood that the suspension was a punishment for the rebellion, and did not apply to the Devonshire Stannaries, so therefore the Devonshire Stannaries did not NEED a Charter of Pardon. Graham. We live in interesting times.
Hunlef Posts: 1214 Posted: 12.May 2008 - 22:49	By this time, Graham, the Devonshire Stannaries were very insignificant, there being very little mineral production. The 1508 Charter applied solely to Cornwall and, as you know, contained the additional specific provision of a veto over acts of Westminster, the King and the Duke of Cornwall. Devonshire most certainly did not benefit from any such provision.
Coady Posts: 1657 Posted: 13.May 2008 - 10:53	Thanks Hunlef. (See, Admin? We CAN be nice!) Regards Graham. We live in interesting times.