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Posted:
11.May 2008 - 11:10
" In the four parishes of Redruth,
Gwennap, Kenwyn, and St. Agnes, where, at a point,
the four western Hundreds of Cornwall meet or unite,
is a barren heathy spot denominated Kyvur ankou;
where all self murderers belonging to those parishes
are deposited by virtue of the coroner's warrant, a custom immemorial,
whence the spot takes its name."
Polwhelt's Cornish Glossary.
And incase you don't know cornish, kyvur ankou litteraly means the Place of Death.
I'm guessing it around Carnmarth somewhere? Marhak do you know?
edited by: Nosdan, May 11, 2008 - 11:16 AM
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Posted:
11.May 2008 - 12:17
On my map of the hundreds the 4 hundreds don't meet in one place.
But its up along the coast from hayle (Heading north east) - according to my map.
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Posted:
11.May 2008 - 12:20
Just checked the old hundreds of Pydar, Powder, Kerrier and Penwyth did meet up at around the same place, I think. Penwyth was obviously a lot bigger then!
Fingers crossed, marhak will know, when he turns up...
edited by: Nosdan, May 11, 2008 - 12:24 PM
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Posted:
11.May 2008 - 12:32
Could this place be more of an area than a place.
I mean, like an area of 1mile radius, which in that circle the Hundreds joined, but not neccesarily in one place.
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Posted:
11.May 2008 - 12:35
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Posted:
11.May 2008 - 12:37
Is this not for suiciders? Is it for Murderers?
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Posted:
11.May 2008 - 16:22
There is only one place in W Penwith where four of the traditional parishes meet. But I think the name contains _keverang_ "hundred" (territorial division). I don't think it has 'death' in it, any more than 'goat'. I dont know a word for 'place' that could fit this sound.
That's the trouble when the language goes, people will come out with any old garbage and others knowing no better will believe them and pass the story on. Most Cornish 'folklore' has probably been invented over the last 150 years to amuse tourists, the real stuff would have gone down the tubes with the language, since apart from JCH and a couple of bits of songs, no one was interested in collecting or preserving this material.
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Posted:
11.May 2008 - 17:14
I think you right TEL i just read Murderers but I think its on about suicides... I think, It was some kind of evil sin to kill yourself so they probably put you as far away as possible.... ...and I suppose no other parish wanted the bodies!
I wonder if the skeletons are still there somewhere... in someone's field perhaps?
edited by: Nosdan, May 11, 2008 - 05:19 PM
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Posted:
11.May 2008 - 21:30
"... the Sieur Angwyn, the greatest and the eldest of the late proffessors of our Cornish Tongue, Who being desired to interpret Gevern Anko, prepossedded with the thoughts of Gever which signifieth Goates, and perplexed about Anko, concluded it was Goats all: Whereas it signifies the Bounds of the Hundred; Gevern he knew to be the Hundred, but forgot that the Word Ko was Cornish for remembering ..."
"... an Empack Angwin an brauza ha an cotha Fratier mesk ul an clappiers Carnoack, a dewethaz rag guffiniez tho dismiggia, Gevern Anko, eue a reeg peverre war Gever, ha meskeeges dro tho Anko, eue levarraz droua Gever ul, eue a wya dro, Gevern buz nekovaz dro tho an geer "ko" dewethaz durt perhen Ko."
(Some real Late Cornish there, clear as mud isn't it?)
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Posted:
11.May 2008 - 22:14
The name fits as this is the only place in Cornwall where four hundreds (Kevrangow) meet at a point. I was thinking of four parishes meeting at a point.
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Posted:
11.May 2008 - 22:51
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Posted:
12.May 2008 - 00:24
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Posted:
12.May 2008 - 00:43
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Posted:
12.May 2008 - 07:14
It probably meant the name Gevern Anko was associated with a place of death in the folk memory. If the old hundreds of Pydar, Powder, Kerrier and Penwyth relate to more ancient 'tribal' areas it could fit. The tradition of burying executed people on tribal/royal boundaries may have been a local tradition or may even have been brought by the bands of Irish that came with the early 'christian' monks that arrived on Cornish shores in the 6th and 7th centuries. Who knows.
edited by: porthia1947, May 12, 2008 - 07:45 AM
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Posted:
12.May 2008 - 08:18
Its got to be somewhere between Scorrier, and Carnmarth...
Where is marhak when you need him?
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Posted:
12.May 2008 - 08:38
The place name Keverangow has been interpreted in some really weird ways, as some have shown in the bove posts. "Goats all" was one such! As Keith has said, it merely means "Hundreds" and was the site of a boundary stone on the Penwith/Kerrier boundary and where four parishes also met (Chacewater, St Day,St Agnes and Redruth). The spot is close to the motel at Scorrier.
It was Assa Govranckowe in 1580, Kierancoe 1613, Keverancowe 1617, Gevar Ancho 1673, Kyver Ankou c1720 and Kyver Ancou 1790. The earliest one has the word Aswa, aswy, "gap, pass".
The word turns up again on the Mount's Bay coast close to Prussia Cove where the rock marked on modern maps as "The Enys" was, in 1580, called Meenkeverangow ("Hundreds stone"). This is the seaward end of the Germoe-St Hilary parish boundary, which is also the Penwith-Kerrier Hundreds boundary.
I can see where the suicide connection comes in. Traditionally, suicides were buried at crossroads in order to confuse the restless spirit which would not know which way to go should it rise from the grave. I suppose a spot where four parishes met would serve just as well.
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Posted:
12.May 2008 - 09:09
Although Gevern Anko may not be boggy land I assume if a 'tribal' boundary (whether the meeting place of 2,3 or 4 boundaries) it could be a place of burial for those dying by means 'outside the norm'. How traditional is the tradition is another question.
edited by: porthia1947, May 12, 2008 - 09:27 AM
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Posted:
12.May 2008 - 10:53
The placename always has a K/c for ankou if it was kevrang(ow) would it not alternate... Also if it was a pass, why would you pass a hundred? surely its a smaller feature.
With your placename evidence, and the testament of Polwhelt;
I would think that Place of the dead is more fitting... also it kind of cool...
Aswy kevar ankow ~ The pass of the Dead!!!
I wonder if they've found any bodies there? Marhak want to bring your spade and will go for a dig?
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Posted:
12.May 2008 - 11:15
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Posted:
12.May 2008 - 11:54
OTOH the Celts did have a thing about boundaries, in both space and time, as being points that were neither quite this nor that, and so in some sense outside the normal framework. It's then easy to see how the idea arose that things supernatural could slip in through these cracks in reality.
Kevrang/k is supposed to be cognate with Welsh cyfranc and Irish comhrac. The words seem to have originally meant a meeting or appointment, but later usually referred to an 'encounter', i.e. a battle or dual, commonly at a ford, which would usually be on the boundary between the disputed territories, or at least in a small piece of ritual nomansland.
However the Cornish meaning of "Hundred" which I don't think is found elsewhere, suggests some sort of weopentake or local muster. Or did the sense of 'meeting (place)' originally refer to the boundaries between territories, and later get transfered to the units themselves, i.e. that which was contained withing the bounds?
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Posted:
12.May 2008 - 14:55
I think it just co-incidence that it looks similar.
Of course i'm no expert.
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Posted:
12.May 2008 - 18:28
Rag own kavoez | y ankow
"For fear of getting his death" i.e. being killed, but :
Ev eth dhe'n korf | o marow
"He went to the body which was dead".
If I were asked to translate "place of the dead/death" I'd come up with something like tyller an verow or marowva. It wouldn't really occur to me to use ankow, but my instincts might well be wrong. What do others think?
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Posted:
12.May 2008 - 23:03
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Posted:
13.May 2008 - 10:19
Aswy kevar ankow agas dynnergh?
The pass of the area of land of Death welcomes you
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Posted:
13.May 2008 - 10:30
It's extremely similar to 'kyvur ankou' and I wonder if there is any cross over of meanings?
If suicide cases were buried at crossroads/border lands then perhaps the place name would turn up more often? and perhaps Kyver ankou was confused with kevrangow or visa versa???
Also 'Meenkeverangow' would not be hard to imagine a rock at sea associated with Death? Especially on the border with association of suicides....
.... What say you Marhak?
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Posted:
13.May 2008 - 20:57
We can always compromise, though. Accept that both place-names refer to their position on the old Hundreds boundary but erect a bloody great statue at Scorrier, looking right over the A30, of the old guy with the scythe. Might even have an beneficial effect on the speed freaks (as well as scaring the hell out of the tourists)!
Oliver Padel has a workable suggestion, though. If "kev(e)rang" is analogous to Welsh <cyfranc>, "meeting, encounter, battle", Old Welsh <cibracma>, "meeting place, battlefield", Middle Breton <cuuranc>, "military assembly" and Old Irish <comrac>, battle, the Cornish <keverang, kevrang> could well have come to mean "district from which a military force could be drawn".
One of the original six hundreds was Trigg, one of our oldest recorded place-names, which was, by the time of The Life of St Sampson, "pagus tricurius", meaning "land of three war hosts". It's interesting that it was later divided into three - Trigg, Lesnewth and Stratton. Maybe Padel is right with this suggestion; it certainly makes sense.
edited by: marhak, May 13, 2008 - 08:10 PM
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Posted:
13.May 2008 - 21:20
I'm a little confused?
Those placenames to me look more like two seperate words than one. Also wouldn't you expect a few of the C/K alternating with G in ankow?
What about the testament of polwhelt?
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Posted:
14.May 2008 - 00:09
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Posted:
14.May 2008 - 08:39
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Posted:
14.May 2008 - 12:48
It is likely that the people who wrote the place-name as two words, spelling ankow with c or k rather than with g, believed that the name contained the word ankow. This is folk-etymology. They did not know the word keverangow. We know much more about Celtic linguistics than they did.
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Posted:
14.May 2008 - 12:56
And then theres the testament of Polwhelt, about the coroners warrant a custom immemorial. Sounds better than a Folk story.
There must be some records, of suicides, back in the 16th century? What happened to them, where they were burried? How could I find out?
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Posted:
14.May 2008 - 13:06
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Posted:
15.May 2008 - 16:33
Sounds close to Morts (Fr) somewhat.
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Posted:
15.May 2008 - 16:48
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Posted:
16.May 2008 - 08:30
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Posted:
16.May 2008 - 23:37
The Scottish Gàidhlig word for dead is "marbh" (pronounced marv).
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Posted:
17.May 2008 - 00:55
No that's "dead". The bony fellow who talks LIKE THIS is "Ankou".
Again "dead" and also the verb "to kill", Mharbh mi a' chaora "I killed the sheep". The word corresponding to C "ankow", B "ankou", W "angau" is eug (also with the same meaning but a different word, bàs).
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Posted:
11.Jun 2008 - 18:57
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Posted:
11.Jun 2008 - 21:56
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Posted:
11.Jun 2008 - 22:05
So walk the path to freedom true
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Posted:
12.Jun 2008 - 08:04
Its a shame the hotel is built on the site, a dig would have proved it...
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Posted:
12.Jun 2008 - 12:31
The Celtic database of the Indo-European Etymological Dictionary (the IEED) at indo-european.nl has:
Compare also, from IEED:
and:
It would seem that Cornish should be kevrank, but that maybe identification with the Welsh changed it to kevrang. Naturally, place names would be expected to preserve the older pronounciations.
The original "Pass of the Cantons" would also indicate that this is the case.
edited by: DenAnkoth, Jun 12, 2008 - 12:48 PM
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And be you not distracted by
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Posted:
12.Jun 2008 - 13:59
So walk the path to freedom true
And be you not distracted by
Oppressors from the East by whom
Your treasures are extracted dry