Posts: 1439
Posted:
28.Aug 2008 - 17:13
So here we go :
1. Prior to 1987 the language movement was united (aside perhaps from a very few Late Cornish supporters) -- TRUE/FALSE ?
2. The Language Board had been established by the Gorsedh and FOCS to take over responsibility for the language revival. It was therefore the legitimate governing body for the language. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
3. The Language Fellowship was a membership organisation to which nearly everyone seriously interested in the Revival at that time belonged. It was open to all on payment of a small annual subscription. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
4. Its membership then included many who later opposed KK, inter alia, R. & D. Chubb, L. Climo, P.A.S. Pool, R & A. Jenkin, Rod Lyon etc. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
5. At this time Agan Tavas was a small exclusive club for fluent speakers, most if not all of whom were also members of the Language Fellowship -- TRUE/FALSE ?
6. The members of the Language Board who voted for KK had been elected a year or two earlier by the members of the Language Fellowship, and this election was a fair one. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
7. Ken George published "The Spelling & Pronunciation of Revived Cornish" towards the end of 1986, in which as a result of his previous researches for a doctorate, he proposed that UC be replaced by a new orthography, later to be called Kernewek Kemmyn -- TRUE/FALSE ?
8. There followed several months of discussion during which Ken's proposals were widely debated within the language community -- TRUE/FALSE ?
9. In autumn 1987 the Language Board met and agreed to change from UC to KK over the next few years, continuing exams in UC while there was demand. Only the late Richard Jenkin voted against. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
10. The great majority of Cornish users/learners took up KK enthusiastically. There was immediate demand for materials, and the change-over was quicker than had been anticipated. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
11. All of the people mentioned in (4) above remained members of the Language Fellowship, as did others (a small minority) who were opposed to KK -- TRUE/FALSE ?
12. A year or two after the decision to adopt KK, the Language Board was re-elected by the members of the Fellowship. This election was fair. All the Board members who stood again were re-elected apart from Richard Jenkin. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
13. This can be seen as a vote of confidence in the Language Board by the Fellowship membership, and as support for the change to KK -- TRUE/FALSE ?
14. Membership of the Language Fellowship is and always has been open to anyone on payment of a small annual subscription. If the Fellowship membership was unrepresentative of the movement as a whole, anti-KK supporters had ample time to recruit more support for their POV -- TRUE/FALSE ?
15. This did not happen and has not happened down to the present day. Fellowship members remain strongly in favour of KK (e.g. Kowethas Survey 2005) -- TRUE/FALSE ?
16. As a result, the Language Board members elected by the Fellowship membership over the years have continued their support for KK (and 'legacy' support for UC) -- TRUE/FALSE ?
17. Agan Tavas was re-created as a society for people opposed to KK (whereas the Language fellowship remained open to all) -- TRUE/FALSE ?
18. Agan Tavas, and several of it's prominent members have persistently campaigned against KK and the legitimacy of the Language Board, loudly and publically, and continue to do so. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
19. As a consequence, the language movement is perceived as being split, especially from the outside. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
20. This 'split' was seized upon by the government as an excuse for delaying funding for the Cornish Language. For setting up the "Partnership", and for sidelining the Language Board. That is replacing a native democratic institution by a quango of mostly non-Cornish speakers. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
21. The antics of AT members (and one or two Late Cornish supporters) are therefore largely to blame for the mess we're currently in. They set their own personal animosities above the views of most Cornish speakers and the unity of the movement as a whole. They engineered the split, and institutionalised it by setting up the 'new' Agan Tavas. They have worked tirelessly to ensure that reconciliation is impossible (just look at their posts here!). And whether they realise it or not, they have played straight into the hands of those opposed to the Cornish Language and Cornish identity -- TRUE/FALSE ?
Please show where I have my facts or logic wrong. (Pictures of baboons bottoms will be understood to imply total agreement with the above).
edited by: morvran, Aug 29, 2008 - 03:08 PM
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 2092
Posted:
28.Aug 2008 - 17:32
'Condemnation without investigation is ignorance' - Albert Einstein
Posts: 1439
Posted:
29.Aug 2008 - 02:44
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 2092
Posted:
29.Aug 2008 - 09:37
Here is some advice for you, I hope you will take it without recourse to hard-done by bleating:
Don't try to be 'holier than thou', a halo doesn't suit your character.
'Condemnation without investigation is ignorance' - Albert Einstein
Posts: 831
Posted:
29.Aug 2008 - 11:24
Can you therefore dispute any of these points?
It seems to me that when facts are put before some people that they respond by personal infective. Personal attacks are really not needed and do know credit to the people involved or the organisations they head up. What's the point?
Posts: 1439
Posted:
29.Aug 2008 - 15:03
High time they came up with some real evidence or else shut up. If they want to 'heal the split' they should wind up AT and all join the Kowethas. They can then influence it policies in proportion to their numbers, and have their disagreements within the language movement, not out in public.
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 984
Posted:
29.Aug 2008 - 15:22
Posts: 2092
Posted:
30.Aug 2008 - 00:54
I was around in 1986 and I was fortunate enough to have known your father who would, I am sure, be turning in his grave if he knew how spineless you turned out to be.
I am not going to get embroiled in a point by point discussion of Bailey's analysis - there is little point since Bailey, for whatever reason, will never see reason or change his warped opinion.
The point is this. There have been a number of unqualified, amateur language enthusiasts i.e. Bailey, Reeves, Dungbar, George et al who, despite not possessing a single appropriate qualification between them, who in many instances do not have any connection to or affiliation with the Cornish as a threatened national minority culture, profess to know what is best for Cornish people and shove it down our throats. On past experience with experts from across the border, I am fed up to the back teeth with such know-alls and charletains who seek only to be divisive and set any progress back decades. These people have had their day and their subversive activities must cease at the earliest opportunity.
Bailey is even on record on this forum as having besmirched the memory of our Cornish ancestors who died, in their thousands, in the vain hope of saving their families and their language. He and his weasly mate from over the Pond even dared to suggest that people like myself, who have devoted considerable sums of their time and money, for no personal gain whatsoever, are racist. Such a comment from the likes of these individuals carries far more offense than anything I might have dispensed towards them.
It is a very sad reflection on Cornish activism when people like Angobew, whom I thought to be a most resilient character, even come out in full support of one foreigner who has done so much to widen the already wide splits in the language community. Whether Bailey et al are members of a fifth column, or not, remains to be seen but, bearing in mind that there is much at stake in this constitutional duchy, anything subversive that the state might do would come as no surprise to me.
The fact remains that the Cornish movement is riddled with gullible (but often well-meaning) people, a fact that prolongs state repression of our culture. It is time for the charletains and false prophets to cease their amateur meddlings and ramblings and leave the administration and development of our culture to real Cornish people and others who, by their actions, prove their committment to the cause.
'Condemnation without investigation is ignorance' - Albert Einstein
Posts: 1828
Posted:
30.Aug 2008 - 01:07
The blog The Great Goky Blog
Posts: 2092
Posted:
30.Aug 2008 - 01:14
'Condemnation without investigation is ignorance' - Albert Einstein
Posts: 1439
Posted:
30.Aug 2008 - 01:45
I am in favour of Cornwall having as much autonomy as possible as soon as practically possible. That means having a sensible strategy to get from where we are now. It means building our own institutions (the Language Board is a small but important part of this), and building an identity, based in part on the past, but looking to the future.
This can't be done by wishful thinking. It has to start from an assessment of the real position as it is now. Not as a few people think it ought to be or might have been. Wishful thinking just gets in the way, it's self-delusion.
The language 'died', your parents didn't teach it to you. It was nothing to do with the English, at least no English (or Cornish) person now alive had anything to do with it. It happened. So if you want it back you've got to take the trouble to learn it.
Same with the politics. If there is Cornish devolution it will most probably be as a spin-off from Scottish independence, leading to a general break-up of the UK as presently constituted. Personally, I very much doubt it will come directly from ancient unenforcable charters and so forth, although they may just tip the balance. I certainly won't stand in the way of anyone who wants to try that approach.
You seem to deeply resent anyone who you don't consider to be 'Cornish', but you refuse to define that term. If you mean something like "having at least x Cornish grandparents" then that is plain racist. It is also xenophobic. People leave Cornwall and other people come here all the time. There's no way you're ever going to stop that. So you need a brand of Cornishness that welcomes people and is something they really want to be part of. Putting up the shutters and adopting a siege mentality is often the knee-jerk reaction of an embattled minority -- and it is cultural and political suicide.
Please read the points and tell me which you think are wrong. The Language Board is elected every three years by the Language Fellowship which is and always has been open to anyone who is sufficiently interested in the language to fork out £6 a year (£15 with the magazine in Cornish). That's less than most people spend during a visit to the pub, but enough to stop people with no interest in the language just walking in off the street.
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 984
Posted:
30.Aug 2008 - 08:37
Posts: 318
Posted:
30.Aug 2008 - 09:16
Posts: 1439
Posted:
1.Sep 2008 - 15:45
If they have no evidence that any of these statements are mistaken, then there is no case to answer. So what was all the fuss about?
I take it you'll now 'heal the split' by winding up AT and merging back into the Language Fellowship? I'd better warn the membership secretary
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 1828
Posted:
1.Sep 2008 - 15:52
The blog The Great Goky Blog
Posts: 630
Posted:
1.Sep 2008 - 16:07
Posts: 4470
Posted:
1.Sep 2008 - 19:21
Posts: 1439
Posted:
1.Sep 2008 - 20:44
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 4470
Posted:
1.Sep 2008 - 23:29
Posts: 1439
Posted:
2.Sep 2008 - 01:09
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 4470
Posted:
2.Sep 2008 - 05:21
Posts: 1439
Posted:
2.Sep 2008 - 15:20
Agree Entirely 3
Disagree 0
Mindless Abuse 2
Prevarication 1
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 4470
Posted:
2.Sep 2008 - 15:38
Posts: 1189
Posted:
2.Sep 2008 - 18:53
When I (briefly) studied Psychology at college, we learned a word for this sort of mental delusion: 'Projection', which is when someone attributes to other people the flaws and defects they're not willing to recognise in themselves.
And 'morvran' ('Honest Keith', as he'd prefer to be known) is a text-book case of this syndrome in all respects.
After all, remember his charming phrases (on the CornishOrthography forum) for those of us who prefer traditional Cornish: "pathetic bad losers, who deserve no respect", and "devious lying cheating little s-h-i-t bags".
MIrror, mirror, on the wall . . . what an apt self portrait!
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KS: selven an Furf Screfys Savonek? -- Ya, hep wow!
Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
Posts: 1439
Posted:
2.Sep 2008 - 21:01
Reasoned disagreement : 0
Prevarication : 1 marhak
Abusive : 3 Hunlef, IrishJack, Eddie-C
edited by: morvran, Sep 02, 2008 - 09:02 PM
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 4470
Posted:
2.Sep 2008 - 21:32
Time to crow, Keith when non-KK users line up and agree with your loaded questions. And they haven't yet. None of them.
I'll answer in my own good time. Right now, I have more important work to finish.
edited by: marhak, Sep 02, 2008 - 08:33 PM
Posts: 1439
Posted:
2.Sep 2008 - 22:08
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 1189
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 07:45
You're deluded, man! You have this ludicrous habit of falsely accusing others of the very things you do yourself.
Silly boy!
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KS: selven an Furf Screfys Savonek? -- Ya, hep wow!
Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
Posts: 1193
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 14:46
Mar vedhow avel gelvinek
(as maazed as a curlew)
Posts: 1828
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 16:03
In fact once you become a fairly fluent reader, you hardley notice the orthography.The anti KK crowd seem to be lacking in brain matter on this issue.
The blog The Great Goky Blog
Posts: 239
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 16:51
Penny
Posts: 368
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 17:08
edited by: Taran, Sep 03, 2008 - 05:14 PM
Posts: 4470
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 17:08
Steve (Goky) asks on another thread why we fighting a 20-year old argument. I'll remind him just who started this "who are the splitters" thread. The KK hardcore raised it, we're answering. They have their view of events and we have ours.
Why have they raised it? Because they oppose the SWF and we don't. We want to see a united language movement, and they don't.
Yes, it's all pretty pointless but when they start flinging accusations ("AT were the splitters")we have to answer them.
Posts: 1193
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 17:23
In all honesty, you havn't... The list of points remains unanswered.
Mar vedhow avel gelvinek
(as maazed as a curlew)
Posts: 50
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 18:32
Marhak says that he would like to see a united language movement, getting behind the SWF. So would I and I do believe him.
The transparent pointlessness of this whole thread is like watching the last eight Mohicans slowly slugging it out to the death with their tomahawks, because they can’t agree on the appropriate tribal hairstyle. For goodness’ sake, do you not realise how ridiculous you make yourselves (and those of us with Cornish affiliations and aspirations) look?
Is it not now time to bury the hatchet and tomahawk? There are people here with precious knowledge and naturally limited energies. Do not dissipate those energies and waste precious time in pointless argument. Produce clear materials in SWF – give one direction for all to follow.
A strong linguistic core will also be very beneficial in helping to reach satisfactory political solutions for Kernow.
Jennifer
Posts: 239
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 19:48
What is 'a draw'?
Penny
Posts: 239
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 21:04
Sorry to puncture your balloon of hopefulness, Jennifer - but how on earth do you expect anyone to "produce clear materials in SWF" when the SWF is about as clear as the proverbial mud? Not only is it hideously complicated (in an attempt to accommodate two widely differing periods of Cornish in one orthography) but it completely cops-out on pronunciation. It's unteachable.
From what I hear no fluent and competent speakers intend using it. It has attracted criticism from all sides, including all the non-Cornish speaking wiseacres posing as 'experts' on the language. The Spellyans group are intent on 'reforming' the SWF until no KK user will look at it.
Morvran's opinion is that the SWF is not merely linguistically inferior, but the process which created it has widened splits in the language rather than healed them.
I believe that he is right - it's a failure whichever way you look at it. Who wants to back a failure?
Penny
Posts: 239
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 21:12
What is a sockpuppet? Am I right in supposing that it is an internet term for someone hiding behind a pseudonym?
Like yourself, Taran?
If so, is there an internet term for someone who hides behind a pseudonym and who accuses people who use their real names of being sockpuppets?
Penny
Posts: 4470
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 22:09
This type of negative propaganda will kill the language.
Posts: 1439
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 22:44
No one else was a member. The others were there to facilitate and keep a detailed and impartial record of what was agreed and write it all up. If that wasn't the case, then once again the Process has deviated from its advertised programme. That is from what everyone was supposed to have accepted.
Btw the whole process of selecting AHG members was rather hazy, and cooked up between the partnership office and the Secretaries of the different groups. I'm unclear if they were supposed to be delegates working to a mandate, or individuals using their own personal judgement.
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 4470
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 23:02
AHG as follows:
KK - George Ansell, Pol Hodge, Polin Pris (I just might be wrong about her - it was either her or Maureen), Loveday Jenkin, Albert Bock
UC- Rod Lyon
UCR Andrew Climo
RLC - Bernard Deacon, Mina Dresser
ALL of them full participants in the debate. The only person who was not to participate, but to keep record was Ben Bruch (also KK, by the way). And then, of course, the Arbitor/Chairman Dr Trond Trosterud.
I am sure that the AHG members themselves will confirm this. As will Jenefer. As will Trond. As will Albert and Ben. I don't have to defend myself on this - the records are there for all to see.
Each language group made proposed nominations, supposed to be two for your own orthography and one each for the others. AT and the Cussel adhered to that but, of course, both the Kesva and the Cowethas had to come in separately with FOUR nominations each for their own groups. (It was also supposed to be by orthography, not by organisation but, of course, when did those two groups ever play straight?)
Those, Keith, are facts. Facts that remain in the records and minutes held by Jenefer.
MASSIVE own goal equal to striking a penalty into your own net (are there any lengths these people won't go to? Christ, Keith, your tactics are so ENGLISH).
I've been waiting patiently for this. Now people can see, once and for all, exactly who has been doing all the lying on this forum.
edited by: marhak, Sep 03, 2008 - 10:10 PM
Posts: 239
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 23:02
Even if the four KK users on the AHG intend to give up using KK and adopt the SWF (which I am informed is not the case!) that still leaves the KK users who were not brainwashed into believing that something had to be decided at Treyarnon.
I can quite understand that you wish the SWF to continue to be pushed by the Partnership (even if competent and fluent Cornish users refuse to use it) because this holds out hope to you that it will help to kill KK.
It's a vain hope, I fear.
A pe an yeth ledhys y fia an re na woer hy hewsel mes a bes yn unn flowsa a-dro dhedhi yn Sowsnek (heb gul vri an bodh po an skians a Gernewegoryon) a via kablus.
Penny
Posts: 239
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 23:13
Albert Bock is not a KK user.
As a one-time member of the Management Group, Craig, how do you feel about people who don't speak Cornish making decisions which affect Cornish speakers?
Penny
Posts: 4470
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 23:21
It is not about the killing of KK and it didn't need me to give it a push - it was doing a good job of slow suicide on its own. Like it or not, only the SWF will be taught to children who will be the future of Cornish. Within a decade or two, KK will be dead. As will UC, UCR and RLC.
You are now the minority and a tiny minority at that. Most Cornish users wanted an end to the division and voted to accept the SWF. What we have as the SWF is not what I wanted to see but that was irrelevant. Flawed as it is, it results from a consensus view.
Keith still nastily refers to one of Cornwall's greatest ever scholars as a "dinosaur". I'm sorry, but you intransigents are now the dinosaurs. The language has moved on and left you behind because you didn't want to move with it (exactly the same accusation you people levelled at the UC and RLC users who would not go with KK - funny how "what goes around comes around" but it sure does).
Posts: 4470
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 23:33
The Cornish language belongs to the Cornish people. Equally. It belongs to the fluent, and it belongs just as much to those who want to start learning it - the same position you were once in.
The structure of the Partnership reflects that overall ownership.
And Albert was/is a KK user.
edited by: marhak, Sep 03, 2008 - 10:38 PM
Posts: 1439
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 16:57
When and how was a ballot held? How were the electorate ("most Cornish users" ) determined? Where are the official tallies posted? What were the other options presented? I think this "vote" is just another fairystory. There has been no ballot. The belated results of the Partnership Survey do however show a clear lead for KK among all respondants, and a very substantial majority for "competent and frequent users". This rather suggests that the SWF is as un-needed as it unwanted.
It is always rather sad when a great man or woman makes a fool of themselves in old age. It is however not without precident. It was you who brought up the subject of PAS Pool's "Second Death of Cornish", and having read it, it's very clear that though heart-felt it is completely misguided. It's author had regrettably 'lost it'. The kindist thing, and the fairest to his memory, would be to draw a veil over this inappropriate outburst, for it is nothing more than misguided spite and opinion. There is no evidence presented anywhere in the book to suggest that anything untoward had taken place. Pool could not accept that the Kesva would ever go against the views of his idol Mortan Nance, but the fact remains that they did. Not by a knife-edge vote, but almost without desent.
Which returns us to the 21 points. Please stop peddling recycled fairytales and tell me where you disagree and present your reasons.
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 1439
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 17:06
The way the names were arrived at was indeed confusing to say the least. Groups were initially asked to suggest names to represent not just their own factions but the opposing groups too, or at least so it appeared. It took a little correspondence to sort all of this out. The whole business was a typical Partnership fudge.
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 4470
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 19:06
edited by: marhak, Sep 04, 2008 - 06:10 PM
Posts: 1439
Posted:
5.Sep 2008 - 02:02
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 4470
Posted:
5.Sep 2008 - 07:56
edited by: marhak, Sep 05, 2008 - 06:57 AM
Posts: 537
Posted:
5.Sep 2008 - 09:38
Anybody that does more for the language than say "I'll learn it one day" deserves some measure of respect.
None of them, in my opinion, is out to damage the language on purpose however misguided or blinkered they may seem from 'the other side', ny vern which side that might be.
And many of them deserve masses of respect and thanks for dedicating years of their lives to the language.
Peter Pool is one of them.
Posts: 4470
Posted:
5.Sep 2008 - 10:53
Of course, I'm rather defensive of Peter Pool. It was he who taught me much of what I know when it comes to archaeology, history, place-name research, etc (not so much the language, as I had yet to get into that but, of course, I had to know some to start tackling the place-names). Both he and Audrey (who, of course is still with us and very active)were wonderfully quirky people but with IQs that leave most of Mensa in the shade. My life is a lot richer for knowing those two (and Peter's archaeological colleague, the late Vivien Russell - I still remember Peter, Audrey and I scattering Vivien's ashes on the summit of Chapel Carn Brea. That was Vivien's idea, so that she could "keep an eye" on her beloved parish of Sennen).
It would, perhaps, be far better if we all acknowledge that each of us loves the language and just accept that, in some things, we think each other to be wrong. The name calling is getting a bit tiring and doesn't exactly put out a good advert.
What do I think of O'Searcoid's paper overall? Wish I could tell you. Applied mathematics leave me a bit cold (and lost). His sections on Dr George's figures and the mathematical computation had me cross-eyed.
Was there a Middle Cornish scribal tradition? Or did they spell the words as they heard them. If the latter, one might expect the orthography to have much in common with Latin, Norman-French and English. But I'm not sure that is true. And the various texts do contain a certain consistency.
Late Cornish spelling is, to a certain extent, a case of scribes writing the words as they heard them as few of them (Keigwin excepted)ever saw earlier Cornish writings. Nonetheless, LC spelling contains letter combinations to represent sounds that are rarely shown that way in English so maybe there is something there that requires futher study.
I am glad that RLC has at least some representation in the SWF, as LC itself is of great value (and, being from West Cornwall, I always preocclude in speech).. Richard Gendall's research threw up all sorts of things that had never been previously recognised.
I could continue but posting here for ages doesn't pay my bills (and I've just had to shell out on a replacement car - have leapt from 1100 Fiesta to 1900 Peugeot 406). So it's back to the mind-numbing Building Regulations.
Posts: 1189
Posted:
5.Sep 2008 - 15:56
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KS: selven an Furf Screfys Savonek? -- Ya, hep wow!
Kernewek Hengovek? -- Sur, nyns us nahen!
Posts: 1439
Posted:
5.Sep 2008 - 16:53
All true. Which is why the less said about "The Second Death of Cornish" the better. Have you read it Pieter? It's where Marghek and Eddie and a few others who weren't involved 20 years ago get all their 'information' about the Kesva being taken over against the will of the masses etc.
Btw I assumed he was far from young because just over 20 years ago he handed over the Penzance class to John King.
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 1828
Posted:
5.Sep 2008 - 17:24
The blog The Great Goky Blog
Posts: 4470
Posted:
6.Sep 2008 - 07:59
We should be looking at where we are and moving on. Rather than accentuate the differences, we should be looking at what we have in common and starting there.
Which is exactly what the SWF process did. They said "we have X, Y and Z in common, so let's write those straight into the SWF". And, lo, it was done.
Then they began to look at the differences. Some were reconcilable and compromise proposals were thrashed out and agreed upon. They got written in as well. The major part of the job done. All in all, remarkably cordially, too.
Then there were the differences that could not be reconciled, a few for factional reasons, most for technical ones. For example, it was decided to adopt the KK spelling <chi>, "house", rather than <chy>, because it was closer to the variant adopted <chei> which catered for the Late Cornish pronunciation which introduces a schwa between ch and i. I don't prefer <chi> to <chy> but that's what we have, so OK. In any case, in place names, where the word is the generic element, it tends to be pronounced ch', so the final letter doesn't really matter too much.
The variants aren't a problem, as I see it. There aren't very many of them and they do cater for preference and/or pronunciation differences. If you want to write <hwel> for "a mine", you can; or you can write <whel>. You can write <gwynn>, "white" or <gwydn>, depending on whether you preocclude. In that way, all preferences are catered for and it was a major achievement. Having initially felt a little uncomfortable about this, I've come to realise that variant spellings like this introduces just the sort of quirk that gives a language life and breath, rather than rigid systems of bland uniformity leading to the lack of real character that most existing forms are guilty of achieving.
What remains are those items that could not be fully discussed, or not discussed at all by the AHG (which, in my view, was simply not allocated nearly enough time to cover it all). Default graphs were inserted, some by Trond, others, I believe, by Albert and Ben, hence the need for a review in 5 years.
I need to stress that these are not factional problems, they're technical ones and some are not easy to sort out. What do we do about words like <bis>, "world" which some pronouce "beez" and others "baiz"? How do we spell that in a way that covers both pronunciations? One solution might be to spell the word <beis>, but it's not up to me. It's something that needs to be debated by many, right across the linguistic board, which is what the Spellyans list is for. I'd recommend that the review panel consists of the very same AHG and linguistic advisors who were appointed by the language groups. But, perhaps this time, with a different chairman/arbitor - maybe a leading Welsh scholar.
Having mentioned <chi>, I have made a place-name recommendation that <ti> be retained in those names that still contain it (Tywardreath, Tehidy, Tywarnhayle, Degembris, Tybesta, etc.). These names exclusively belong to major manorial centres and it may be that the retention of the archaic form <ti> was considered to lend some prestige or gravitas. Whatever the truth, there seems to be an historical reason for it and so I recommend retaining it rather than showing the word as <chi>.
edited by: marhak, Sep 06, 2008 - 07:08 AM
Posts: 166
Posted:
6.Sep 2008 - 17:36
I wonder...
I agree Mar(g)h(a/e)k.
I think that what we really need is five more years of the same round of the same arguments at the end of which The C.L.B. can re-introduce double consonants to show vowel length, keep gh in the middle of words and restore oe into the main form, and Spellyans can ammend the traditional form to obliterate all traces of K.K. and then guess where we'll be?
Is 'beis' attested? Why not spell it b(i/y)s?
Excuse me if I sound a little jaded, have been away for a while, but see that nothing has changed here.
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Posted:
7.Sep 2008 - 16:50
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Posted:
7.Sep 2008 - 22:44
edited by: marhak, Sep 07, 2008 - 09:45 PM
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Posted:
7.Sep 2008 - 22:50
edited by: goky, Sep 07, 2008 - 10:50 PM
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Posted:
8.Sep 2008 - 10:45
I didn't realise people were unaware of this.
There are lots of attestations of 'k' before 'a', 'o', 'u', 'l' and 'r'.
Why, even the word at the beginning of the name of the place west of Redruth can be found in the texts as 'kam' with a 'k' (alongside 'cam', of course).
These spellings with 'k' before 'a', 'o', 'u', 'l' and 'r' are traditional forms.
Recognising that fact may well present an excellent opportunity for bringing the SWF 'traditional form' a little more in line with the SWF 'main form' in five years' time.
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Posted:
8.Sep 2008 - 14:01
Penny
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Posted:
8.Sep 2008 - 18:56
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Posted:
8.Sep 2008 - 19:21
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Posted:
9.Sep 2008 - 10:55
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Posted:
10.Sep 2008 - 01:18
No, no, no you are missing my point entirely, you are accountants of language and you are killing this one. You are like a 19th century butterfly collector who wipes out a species in order to catalogue it.
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Posted:
11.Sep 2008 - 20:14
1. True
2. True (until 1987). The Language Board was set up for THE Cornish language. Once it decided to support one new, artificial form, pay lip service to Unified and utterly ignore the rest, it lost that mandate. As a result it now has no greater status than does Agan Tavas or Cussel an Tavas Kernuack.
3. Can't comment - I'd never heard of it back then.
4. Can't comment for the same reason.
5. Ditto, but I have been told that this is not strictly true.
6. Can't comment - wasn't there.
7. Sadly true.
8. True, but informal discussion only, rather than any official or organised programme of discussion (see cases for and against in Old Cornwall editions of the time: one for (Brown) and two against (Pool and Gendall), as I recall).
9. Can't comment, wasn't there. Like all too many, wasn't told about it. Was this minuted?
10. False. Many took it up. Many didn't. You will have to prove the "great majority" bit.
11. Can't comment. I haven't a clue who were members and who were not. Are there records?
12.Can't comment, wasn't there. Is this minuted?
13. Can't comment. How many Fellowship members had dropped out in the interim?
14. As above - how many people wishing to use traditional forms had dropped out of the Fellowship?
15. True - because many non-KK users had dropped out.
16. True, on the face of it, but then Robert Mugabe got "re-elected" despite the majority vote against him. And George W. Bush first time round, despite the majority vote against him. And the Board is now proposing to drop all exams in UC, making it totally exclusive of anything but KK. True or false?
17. False. Agan Tavas was founded for those who wished to continue using traditional forms of Cornish, as stated in its constitution which contains nothing about opposing KK, or even mentions KK at all. Remember that the Board was no longer catering for the needs and preferences of those people and they needed a body that did. The Board would not listen to their viewpoint, and so they formed that body. They were given no other choice.
18. True. And for extremely good reasons. So have members of Cussel an Tavas Kernuack. And Teere ha Tavas.
19. False - not "as a consequence" which suggests that your version of events under 18 above created the split. They didn't. The split had already taken place due to most language users having been given no say in the matter. Agan Tavas did not create the split. The CLB of the time did, by embracing the supporters of one form and either rejecting the rest or paying them mere lip service.
20. False. The reluctance of the UK govt. to add Cornish to the European Charter was due to their wish not to recognise it. To do so would be to recognise the Cornish as not being "English". Only years of persistent pressure from ALL language movements got the job done. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the split. No funding has been delayed since then, as, apart from the small sum that has been made available, none has been specifically allocated.
21. Utterly, utterly false. And you know it.
Right, there are my answers which are honest, unlike several of your "questions" (actually statements, many of them loaded). And they won't change. Some might moan about that but they shouldn't have insisted on people like me responding, should they? As the forces say when under fire: "If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined".
edited by: marhak, Sep 12, 2008 - 09:34 AM
Posts: 178
Posted:
13.Sep 2008 - 04:38
Here is the official list of the AHG members from the MAGA site:
Trond Trosterud Arbiter appointed by the Partnership
Albert Bock Assistant
Jori Ansell nominated by Kesva an Taves Kernewek
Ben Bruch Kernewek Dasunys
Andrew Climo nominated by Agan Tavas
Bernard Deacon nominated by Cussel an Tavaz Kernuak
Mina Dresser nominated by Cussel an Tavaz Kernuak
Pol Hodge nominated by Kesva an Taves Kernewek
Loveday Jenkin nominated by Kowethas an Yeth Kernewek
Rod Lyon nominated by Agan Tavas
Polin Pris nominated by Kowethas an Yeth Kernewek
Jenefer Lowe Partnership note-taker.
Posts: 368
Posted:
13.Sep 2008 - 11:58
JL (Assistant - neutral)
AB (Technical Assistant - Worked on KK based Dasunys with BB)
BB (KK, Dasunys co-author)
JA (KK)
PH (KK)
LJ (KK)
PP (KK)
BD (RLC)
MD (RLC)
RL (UC)
AC (UC/UCR)
As is quite clear the committee had a clear bias to KK, with proponents and those with their primary Cornish experience based on KK weighting the committee.
KS technical advisers were largely ignored and prevented from participating in the discussions by LJ and her supporters. This has been documented elsewhere. The Breton advisers also complained of being ignored.
The committee leadership also unilaterally extended its remit to add a principle of conservation into its aims, primarily to weight KK word forms still further.
(b.t.w. I thought Ben was a technical advisor like Albert, rather than a full committee member?)
edited by: Taran, Sep 13, 2008 - 11:58 AM
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Posted:
13.Sep 2008 - 14:11
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Posted:
13.Sep 2008 - 17:17
when the Kowethas and CLB are basically one and the same. Some of us thought the AHG was supposed to be representative of each orthography not organisation. Strikes me someone moved the fences.
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Posted:
13.Sep 2008 - 17:54
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Posted:
13.Sep 2008 - 18:13
Sorry that's where you're wrong, one of the Kowethas reps is a member of the CLB and has been for some time.
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Posted:
13.Sep 2008 - 18:16
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Posted:
13.Sep 2008 - 18:17
The blog The Great Goky Blog
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Posted:
13.Sep 2008 - 22:38
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Posted:
13.Sep 2008 - 22:44
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Posted:
13.Sep 2008 - 22:51
The preferences of the members of the AHG reflect fairly well the preference of users of the various forms of Kernewek. The MAGA survey indicates this quite well ie. over half of users use KK. The remainder is split between UC/UCR/LC. If you take fluent users the odds are even more in favour of KK. In this respect the balance of the different types in the AHG sounded about right.
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Posted:
14.Sep 2008 - 19:54
We should have predicted what the KK camp would do, and they did. In came the Cowethas, nominating FOUR of their own number, one UC/UCR, one LC (and, of course all four of their nominations were KK people). The CLB came in separately, also nominating four people (all KK), plus one from the UC/UCR camp and one LC. So KK not only had two bites of the cherry (and were allowed to break the agreed rule and do so), but also got away with twice the number of nominations from their own side that had also been agreed.
It is exactly how the KK hardcore has behaved over the entire sad 21 years of their history. Agan Tavas and Cussel and Tavas Kernuack obeyed the agreed rule of nomination to the letter (and that had been agreed by all parties). Yes. I was bloody annoyed. So was Bernard. We were not happy, thought that the Cowethas and the CLB had acted wholly dishonourably and said so. Nonetheless, we let it pass, because progress towards a SWF was, in both our opinions, more important to mainstream Cornish users than yet another faction fight.
I got even more annoyed when Loveday announced that, if one of Agan Tavas's nominations - Michael Everson - was appointed onto the AHG, the KK faction would either walk out of the entire thing, or demand a further two AHG members.
How DO you work with people like that? No honour. No trust. Dictatorial (even though they have no official status) and ready at the drop of a hat to ride roughshod over protocols they themselves had previously agreed.
If Bernard and I had reacted angrily to Loveday's demands that day in November last year; if we had tried to hold out against her demands, then there is no doubt in my mind that the Cornish language would have died forever, then and there. But those who gave her those orders cared not a jot about that. Nor did they give a damn about the interests of ordinary Cornish users. The process would proceed on their terms (and sod the rest of us) or it would not go ahead at all.
Does the restrained conduct of Bernard and myself that day mirror the sort of people who would deliberately create a split 21 years ago? Or is that intent truly mirrored by the conduct of the KK parties that day?
You judge. Consider closely the conduct of Agan Tavas, Cussel an Tavas Kernuack and the KK movements both in this meeting and in the time between it and the previous Management Group meeting. Who adhered to agreed rules of procedure and who didn't? Which of these factions would have been most likely to have created a deliberate split in the language movement 21 years ago? Which of these movements is the most likely to ignore and utterly dismiss the interests of ALL language users, regardless of orthograpohical precedence?
None of the above is hearsay. None of it is fantasy. None of it is fiction. It was a minuted meeting. Present: Loveday Jenkin, Bernard Deacon, myself, Bert Biscoe (as Chairman), Jenefer Lowe and Elizabeth Stewart (who did not take part in the meeting but was in the same room).
edited by: marhak, Sep 14, 2008 - 07:01 PM
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Posted:
14.Sep 2008 - 20:53
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Posted:
15.Sep 2008 - 09:12
It's a pity that you and others refuse to see that,or any good in what we do, but that was the case and that's the way we played it.
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Posted:
15.Sep 2008 - 12:28
edited by: goky, Sep 15, 2008 - 12:31 PM
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Posted:
15.Sep 2008 - 13:54
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Posted:
16.Sep 2008 - 15:50
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Posted:
16.Sep 2008 - 17:14
And I've answered them.
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Posted:
16.Sep 2008 - 17:23
When Kernewek Kemmyn was adopted as the standard for Kowethas an Yeth Kernewek, those who did not agree with the committee's decision were no longer made welcome