Posts: 835
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 14:41
When we write to the UK Government about our Duchy Governmnet failing to live up to its responsibilities, the UK Government says it cannot address our concerns because the Duchy Government is a 'private estate'.
Report in the WMN today describes how Scilly Isanders cannot buy their land from the Duchy, despite a 2002 law saying all leaseholders are entitled to buy private freeholders out.
The Duchy is refusing to obey this law as it says, wait for it - it is not a private estate but part of the Crown, or government, of Britain.
Posts: 835
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 15:01
Charles 'acting like feudal baron'
10:00 - 03-September-2008
1 reader has commented on this story.
Click here to read their views.
ANGRY Scilly islanders have accused the Prince of Wales of behaving like a feudal baron for exploiting a legal loophole over rights to buy the ground on which their homes are built.
Residents of around 60 houses on the five inhabited islands are considering a legal challenge against the Duchy of Cornwall, the Prince's landed estate which provides his income.
Alan Davis, secretary of the Garrison Leasehold Group on St Mary's, which represents the affected islanders, said the issue was causing a lot of bitterness.
"We just want the same rights available to everyone else.
"But our problem is that the Duchy of Cornwall enjoys some sort of feudal privilege which is not available to any other landlord in the country."
The controversy surrounds properties on the Scillies – those in the 16th-century garrison on St Mary's and a number of homes on the off-islands, excluding Tresco. Residents like Mr Davis are leaseholders, owning the bricks and mortar of their properties, but not the land on which they are built.
They all have a long lease and each year pay a ground rent to the owner of the land, the freeholder, the Duchy of Cornwall.
Under the 2002 Leasehold Reform Act, most leaseholders in Britain were given the right to buy the freehold of their property. However, the Duchy of Cornwall is exempt as it claims to be part of the Crown.
The Garrison Leasehold Group say this is "unjust" and "unfair" as the Duchy of Cornwall is run as a multi-million- pound commercial concern.
"The Duchy owns holiday cottages on the Isles of Scilly. I do not know why the future King of England is messing about with holiday lets," said Mr Davis. I just don't understand why the Duchy will not back away from this."
The leases granted on the properties can be long-term, but a number are running out, making homes virtually worthless.
"Who is going to buy a home with only ten years left to run on the lease?" he said.
Mr Davis bought his home on St Mary's in 1984 with an 80 year plus lease. "I will be long gone by the time the lease runs out, but that is not the point," he said. "This is about having your rights taken away by this sort of feudal privilege."
The Duchy of Cornwall once owned all the land and properties on the Isles of Scilly but most have been sold off.
A Duchy spokeswoman confirmed there was a small number of sites, including the garrison on St Mary's, which belonged to the Duchy of Cornwall estate and were exempt from the Leasehold Reform Act.
OH WELL, ANOTHER DAY - ANOTHER LAW BROKEN TO AID OUR SECRET DICTATOR!!!!!!
DONT BOTHER ADDING A READERS COMMENT WHICH INCLUDES ANY REREFENCE TO DuchyofCornwall.eu website, IT WILL BE CENSORED BY THE PAPER [See media censorship thread]
edited by: sentinel, Sep 03, 2008 - 02:03 PM
Posts: 336
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 17:54
Meanwhile, for those who need advice about escheat, (ie bona vacantia etc) all is fully explained for those outside of Cornwall by the firm of solicitors charged by the Crown Estates to look after this very valuable, and possibly emotive, area:
http://www.burg...nce_Note.pdf
For those residents of Cornwall who need advice, take a torch with you, for you'll be in the dark.
Posts: 4470
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 18:13
Perhaps now they'll stop telling that particular lie (but I doubt it - never seen goalposts moving more since England's last excuse for their football team not scoring).
Posts: 4667
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 18:15
As far as I know even freeholders don't really own the land they just hold it for as long as they live (and can pass it on via a will) from the Crown or Duchy. So if they die intestate (no will) it reverts to the Crown or Duchy.
So at the moment the Duchy in the Scillies is a freeholder of some properties but a freeholder from itself! Is that the case?
The Cornish Democrat
The Breton Connection
Posts: 2318
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 18:50
.gif){kind=icon}
HERE is the article: 'Charles Acting Like Feudal Baron'.Apparently this comment from a reader has been blocked:
'It's high time all the assets and incomes of The Duchy Of Cornwall(corp.div.)
in and derived from The Duchy Of Cornwall are put in trust
for the benefit of ALL the people of The Duchy Of Cornwall.
The Absentee Duke, whoever he might be, could be a trustee.
This is the 21st Century after all,NOT the 12th!'
edited by: TeamKernow, Sep 03, 2008 - 06:54 PM
Posts: 540
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 18:51
I look forward to seeing if the WMN deletes my comment.
KERNOW DOES'NT BOW TO LONDON
Posts: 1017
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 19:05
That is because it is a private estate
Posts: 2318
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 19:13
2 in 1 - 1 in 2.
Posts: 835
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 22:07
Uhhh....ILbeing stupid UKIPer, the Duchy is now saying it is not a private estate - same as it said in 1857 foreshore dispute.
BTW, do you know anything about anything?
Posts: 1439
Posted:
3.Sep 2008 - 23:17
If you die intestate any land you own (land includes any buildings e.g. houses) goes to your next of kin. If no relatives can be traced then it reverts to the Crown (or Duchy) as feudal superior. It's rather difficult to see what else could happen, in the Irish Republic afaik the land also goes to the state.
If the Act referred to (I haven't checked) reforming leasehold includes saving clauses for the Crown and Duchy of Cornwall, then there is no illegality as Parliment exempted them in the first place. That's not to say it's fair, but whoever said the law had to be fair?
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Posts: 2092
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 00:15
The Duchy of Cornwall in Cornwall is the owner of land of last resort in Cornwall - it cannot, therefore, be a private estate.
The owner of last resort of land in the remainder of the UK is the Crown. (In the Duchy of Lancaster, it is the Duke of Lancaster, or Queen Elizabeth 1 of Scotland), neither of which are private estates.
In the event that someone dies intestate in the UK, the public at large benefits through the Crown Estate. (In similar circumstances in the Duchy of Lancaster, the people residing within it are the beneficiaries).
In Cornwall, the people of Cornwall receive no benefit whatsover from the profits of bona vacantia (this includes intestate estates) since the profit arising from it go solely to one man, to do as he pleases, unencumbered by taxation. This one person is the Duke of Cornwall. Since the Duchy of Cornwall in Cornwall is the analogous body to the Crown Estates in the remainder of the UK and must, therefore, fulfil similar functions and responsibilities, it cannot, on this basis also, be a private estate.
To treat analogous groups of people, i.e. the Cornish and the rest of the UK, differently, is discriminatory.
Does that assist the understanding of the nutty professor Morvran?
edited by: Hunlef, Sep 03, 2008 - 11:57 PM
'Condemnation without investigation is ignorance' - Albert Einstein
Posts: 835
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 07:37
Morvan admits that the Duchy Government forms part of the apparatus of state, and then suggests that it is not illegal for the state authorities to falsely represent and portray, in Parliament, the Courts and to imnternational bodies, this entity as a 'private estate' - and by doing so, deliberately deny a people their history, territorial rights and status.
Posts: 4667
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 08:37
One can only wish them the best of luck and hope that they get the best of advice. I get the feeling though that the Duchy will try and avoid any such court action that might throw light on its janus faced nature and, if pushed, will probably back down.
The Cornish Democrat
The Breton Connection
Posts: 2092
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 08:50
Don't forget that the Duke will have the benefit of Section 40, 2(g) of the crown Proceedings Act (1947) that gives him the right to, 'control or otherwise intervene in proceedings that affect his rights, property and profits'!
I doubt very much whether any English legal advisors will acquaint their clients with this and a plethora of other relevant Duchy/Human Rights deficiencies.
'Condemnation without investigation is ignorance' - Albert Einstein
Posts: 4667
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 09:03
This kind of court case is what Joe Bloggs loves to read about in his tabloid (much more so than Cornish national minorities I guess) so any such court actions would risk dragging the Duchies constitutional dirty linen out into the 'Sun'.
To avoid this, my bet, is they'll just back down and agree to let them buy just like the Duchy agreed to pay 'Tax', but no laws will have changed and legally it will only be because the Duchy had decided it so.
edited by: Fulub-le-Breton, Sep 04, 2008 - 10:05 AM
The Cornish Democrat
The Breton Connection
Posts: 2092
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 11:16
edited by: Hunlef, Sep 04, 2008 - 10:20 AM
'Condemnation without investigation is ignorance' - Albert Einstein
Posts: 4667
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 13:41
Instead the Duchy will make a big fuss of being the best possible landowner and organise some sort of positive publicity.
Just my ideas but lets keep an eye on it and see.
edited by: Fulub-le-Breton, Sep 05, 2008 - 11:35 AM
The Cornish Democrat
The Breton Connection
Posts: 835
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 15:15
Posts: 1439
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 16:22
Posts: 540
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 17:40
In addition who are the next biggest landowners?
KERNOW DOES'NT BOW TO LONDON
Posts: 2318
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 18:40
Diggin' It?
Posts: 1171
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 18:51
Posts: 336
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 19:32
I believe the Tregothnan Estate (Lord Falmouth) is bigger than the Duchy holdings in Cornwall, Cornwall Council also have a lot of farmland.
Here are the contact details for the major landowners in Cornwall:
http://www.roya...ndowners.pdf
edited by: Kerrow, Sep 04, 2008 - 07:30 PM
Posts: 835
Posted:
4.Sep 2008 - 21:50
A number of residents in the Isles of Scilly are demanding the right to buy the the homes from the Duchy, the Prince's landed estate, which is refusing because it is excluded from rules which allow tenants to buy the properties they live in from their landlords.
The fight centres on the 16th century walls of the Garrison on St Mary's, the largest of the islands which are 28 miles south-west of Land's End.
It could lead to one of the first court challenges to the authority of the Duchy since it was formed in 1372 by Edward III to generate an income suitable for the heir to the throne.
The Scillonians, as the islanders like to be known, have now consulted lawyers for the first time to examine the legal status of the Duchy of Cornwall. They have also secured the support of Andrew George, the local Liberal Democrat MP, who has submitted a Freedom of Information request to establish why the Duchy was excluded when many other Crown properties are not.
The Duke of Westminster, one of Britain's biggest private landlords, was defeated when he went to court to try to stop leaseholders on his Grosvenor Estate buying the freeholds under the right to buy legislation.
Alan Davis, secretary of the Garrison Leasehold Group, said: "We are campaigning for the same equal right to enfranchisement as other citizens. Our problem is that our landlord is the Duchy of Cornwall.
"The Duchy on its website refers to itself as "a well managed private estate" whose principal activity is the sustainable and commercial management of its land and properties".
"Yet as far as leasehold reform goes, the Duchy lays claim to being part of the Crown, although it is not a Crown Body. While the Crown has specific, understandable and clearly intentioned exemptions applying to properties within the grounds of the Royal Palaces. the same cannot be said of the Duchy of Cornwall which is a commercial estate.
We believe that it is unjust and unfair that the Duchy is able to opt out of this arrangement by virtue of resort to what appears to be feudal privilege or connections in the corridors of power."
The Duchy once owned all the land and properties on the Isles of Scilly but many homes on St Mary's have been sold off so it now owns 330 - just under 30 per cent - of the 1,150 residential properties on the islands.
The Duchy of Cornwall estate, which is spread over 23 counties mainly in the south-west of England, rose in value last year by eight per cent to £647 million. The Prince of Wales's income from the Duchy rose by £1.1 million to £16.3 million.
Mr Davis said: "The Duchy does not like the enfranchisement legalisation and have used their position to claim an exemption. No other freeholder has the right to say no to enfranchisement. Even the Crown will allow it, if it does not impinge on Royal Palaces."
The Duchy is determined that the houses in the Garrison will not be broken-up or fall into private hands so will not sell the freeholds. A spokeswoman said: "
The Prince of Wales upset the 2,000 islanders in 2005 when the Duchy entered the holiday-home business on the islands for the first time. It renovated a granite two-bedroom house that had traditionally been used by local teachers.
Annabel Elliot, the Duchess of Cornwall's sister and an interior designer, was paid from duchy funds to give the cottage an extensive makeover. The Duchy has also imposed Visitor Licence fees - dubbed a bed tax by the locals- on residential tenancies who do holiday lets.
A spokeswoman for the Duchy said: "The Garrison on St Mary's is one of a small number of sites belonging to the Duchy of Cornwall estate that is exempt from the leasehold reform act. In order to preserve the special appearance and nature of this site it was agreed at the time the legislation was introduced, and reinforced by subsequent ministerial statements, that the Duchy would retain the freehold of the properties rather than allow a fragmented approach to their management."
Posts: 1718
Posted:
5.Sep 2008 - 00:38
Duchy of Cornwall HERE
edited by: Shaz, Sep 05, 2008 - 12:49 AM
Posts: 2318
Posted:
5.Sep 2008 - 00:52
HEREis the Daily Telegraph's version of the background:'Prince of Wales housing row: The legal case
The right to buy legislation of the Leasehold Reform Act (1967) allows leaseholders to force their landlord to sell them the permanent freehold.
Last Updated: 3:19PM BST 01 Sep 2008
The law, which is separate from that allowing people to buy their council houses, was brought in to help long-term leaseholders trapped with landlords who failed to keep up repairs and look after properties.
It means anyone whose lease term is 21 years or above and has lived in a house for more than two years can force their landlord to sell the freehold for a fair price.
The freehold of a residential block of flats can also be bought if there are enough qualifying leaseholders living there.
If a fair price cannot be agreed, an independent tribunal is set up to decide what the cost should be.
The law has proved unpopular with many major landlords, who have described it as a land grab with the potential to break up estates.
National Trust properties and buildings in a cathedral precinct are exempt, as are many Crown properties including parts of the Duchy of Cornwall.
Edward III, the warrior monarch of the 14th century, set up the Duchy when he decreed that his eldest son, the Black Prince, should enjoy a trust fund worthy of an heir to the throne.
The king parcelled up some of his castles, manors and hamlets, largely in the counties of Cornwall and Devon, and granted them to his son along with the Duke of Cornwall title. His son was free to use the annual profits from his new Duchy as he liked, but at his death must pass on the estate, intact, to his own eldest son.
So it is that Prince Charles can spend the annual profits from this legacy but can never eat into its capital. The Duchy is regulated by the Treasury. Prince Charles became the 24th Duke of Cornwall when his mother became Queen in 1952, when he was aged three-and-a-half.'
Posts: 835
Posted:
5.Sep 2008 - 08:47
Well, Ive looked high and low and cannot find any reference to this supposed decree. All that is said is that the Duchy was formalised in order to bestow Cornwall with its ancient honours and protect it against enemies - and that this would be achieved by direct devolved administration from the Princes, or Duchy, Council - with profits from Cornwalls GDP going to the Duke.
So another media misinformation programme kicks in.
Posts: 4667
Posted:
9.Sep 2008 - 09:42
The Cornish Democrat
The Breton Connection
Posts: 835
Posted:
9.Sep 2008 - 21:20
online
Posts: 745
Posted:
10.Sep 2008 - 01:32
A trust fund? In 1337?
Clever use of the word 'including' - suggestive of the Duchy and the Crown being one and the same.
If it don't FIT, change IT around.
online
Posts: 745
Posted:
10.Sep 2008 - 01:35
Pay it monthly or pay it in one lump sum for your lifetime, either way it all goes back to the Duchy of Cornwall in the end. How exactly will anything be 'broken up'? Apart from 'breaking' the Duke's intentions to rake more money from holiday home conversions once the lease is up.
If it don't FIT, change IT around.
Posts: 835
Posted:
10.Sep 2008 - 03:43
That's a joke surely - the duchy is already portraying itself as a 'commercial private estate', so according to the Big Lie, the properties are already in 'private hands'.
Or are some hands more private than others?
So which is it to be, the properties are currently safe in the hands of the Government of the Duchy of Cornwall, or unsafe in the ownership of the current 'private hand'?
This is clearly yet more duplicity and more doublespeak from the Duchy Government of Cornwall.
Posts: 336
Posted:
10.Sep 2008 - 21:34
Who is eligible to register a .gov.uk domain name?
The Cabinet Office website lists the organisations:
'The only organisations which can register a .gov.uk domain name are:
* UK government and devolved administration departments and agencies
* local and regional government bodies, including town and parish councils
* other associated and Non-Departmental Public Body organisations and projects.
Nothing there about private estates being eligible for a .gov.uk domain name, but this one is the contact for the Scilly office:
ios@duchyofcornwall.gov.uk
http://www.duch.../contact.htm
edited by: Kerrow, Sep 10, 2008 - 08:47 PM
Posts: 1283
Posted:
10.Sep 2008 - 22:01
online
Posts: 745
Posted:
11.Sep 2008 - 01:21
Must be the only gov.uk domain that does it.
If it don't FIT, change IT around.