Posts: 4667
Posted:
8.Oct 2005 - 13:51
I would like to encourage contribution to a section that will look at references to the Cornish people as a distinct British peoples throughout the history of these isles.
So if people could give me examples of historical reference to the Cornish, our language and our country it would be most appreciated.
I am looking for things like the words of the ambassador to Venice or Genoa (i cant remember) who mentioned the Cornish as a peoples of Britain.
Posts: 234
Posted:
8.Oct 2005 - 15:45
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/nations/cornish_nation_03.shtml
1531 - Remarks made by a series of foreign visitors to England during the Tudor period make it clear that, if Cornwall was commonly regarded as almost a separate country, then the Cornish were commonly regarded as a separate ethnic group.
Lodovico Falier, an Italian diplomat at the Court of Henry VIII, had no doubts on this score. 'The language of the English, Welsh and Cornish men is so different that they do not understand each other', Falier informed a correspondent in 1531 - adding that it was possible to distinguish the members of each group by their alleged 'national characteristics'.
Seven years later, Gaspard de Coligny Chatillon - the French Ambassador in London - showed that he, too, was aware of this ethnic split. The kingdom of England was by no means a united whole, he wrote back to his political masters, for it also 'contains Wales and Cornwall, natural enemies of the rest of England, and speaking a [different] language'. Perceptions remained very much the same throughout the rest of the 16th century.
Following the death of Henry's daughter, Elizabeth I, in 1603, the Venetian ambassador wrote that the late queen had ruled over five different 'peoples': 'English, Welsh, Cornish, Scottish ...and Irish'.
1616 - Arthur Hopton stated that: 'England is ...divided into 3 great Provinces, or Countries ...every of them speaking a several and different language, as English, Welsh and Cornish.'
1509 - Henry VIII's coronation procession includes "nine children of honour" representing "England and France, Gascony, Guienne, Normandy, Anjou, Cornwall, Wales and Ireland."
1485 - An Italian cleric, Polydore Vergil, living in England and commissioned by the king, Henry VII, to write a history of England made the following distinction: "The whole country of Britain is divided into four parts, whereof the one is inhabited by Englishmen, the other of Scots, the third of Welshmen, the fourth of Cornish people … and which all differ among themselves either in tongue, either in manners, or else in laws and ordinances." At this time the concept of the 'Island of England' was rife as the incoming Tudor dynasty gave a new, and sinister, meaning to English imperial domination.
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=5749
http://www.kernowtgg.co.uk/index.html
Posts: 4667
Posted:
9.Oct 2005 - 16:02
Posts: 733
Posted:
9.Oct 2005 - 18:49
Posts: 33
Posted:
15.Oct 2005 - 11:07
Good to be back by the way. Glad to see the board as vibrant as ever!
Posts: 733
Posted:
15.Oct 2005 - 14:19
Hello Max, how are you?
Posts: 4667
Posted:
15.Oct 2005 - 17:27
In 878, the drowned king Donyarth is recorded in the Welsh annals as rex Cerniu.
In 1937 Bartholomew published a Map of European Ethnicity prepared by the Edinburgh Institute of Geography which featured "Celtic Cornish".
More recently Jim Fitzpatrick MP, an ODPM Parliamentary Under Secretary in the current Labour government, said in the Commons in response to Andrew George MP, a Liberal Democrat representing the St Ives Constituency in Cornwall, I realise that the people of Cornwall consider that they have a separate identity.
Phil Woolas MP, Minister for Local Government, did the same in answer to a letter from Mebyon Kernow On your point about Cornwall’s desire to control its own future, the Government is very much aware of the strength of feeling about Cornwall’s separate identity and distinctiveness and The Government recognises that many people in Cornwall consider they have a separate identity.
NGO's such as Eurominority and the Federal Union of European Minorities also give varying degrees of recognition to a Cornish people
Posts: 33
Posted:
15.Oct 2005 - 20:39
Posts: 161
Posted:
16.Oct 2005 - 21:22
Posts: 742
Posted:
16.Oct 2005 - 23:43
Quote Angela Eagle, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions: "The hon. Member for South-East Cornwall argued that his area of the south-west was a separate region. The hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr. Yeo) argued in debates on previous amendments, to which he referred today, the case of Devon and Cornwall. However, anyone who has visited Devon and Cornwall knows that the Cornish believe that they should have their own RDA, and do not want to be included with Devon. There is therefore no consensus across such areas about where the boundaries should be."
Quote David Curry MP: My hon. Friend has raised a crucial issue. I had some responsibility for the south-west, and it was apparent that there is tremendous incoherence in that region. The region ranges from some extremely prosperous parts of the M4 corridor to Cornwall, which is one of the most deprived areas in the United Kingdom. My only quarrel with my hon. Friend is about putting Cornwall and Devon together, because they are very separate areas. Devon is significantly more prosperous than Cornwall. Indeed, I believe that there is a strong case that, when the European fund revision takes place, they should no longer be linked and Cornwall should stand on its own as one of the regions eligible for European assistance. Cornwall is characterised by a low-wage economy and high unemployment, because it is an industrial county. If one looks at the history of Cornwall, one sees that it has a strong industrial tradition, which one occasionally overlooks when one thinks of it in terms of its recreational and sporting facilities.
Quote Stephen Day MP: "The amendment allows us to bring to the Committee’s attention the fact that, as Opposition Members have tried to explain, there is no such thing as a purely regional identity. The south-west, which is often automatically accepted as having more of a regional identity than other parts of England, is a classic example of not having a regional identity to speak of. Anybody who has been to Cornwall knows that a Cornishman if asked who he is, will say that he is a Cornishman, as opposed to an Englishman, and feels that sense of identity, in cultural and economic terms. It is true that Cornwall has not benefited in the same way as many other parts of the United Kingdom, as prosperity has grown in this country. It is essential that such differences in so-called administrative areas, which the Government like to call “regions�, as if they had an identity, should be recognised.
The amendment allows us to discuss these differences and the realities of people’s sense of identity I hope that the Government will be willing to accept that and thereby recognise the differences between, particularly, Devon and Cornwall."
As you can see the Cornish are certainly recognised as distinct or having distinct problems, but the issues of populations sizes and economies of scale are a major mental block to them, preventing them going that one step further.
Posts: 346
Posted:
17.Oct 2005 - 01:44
"I do not favour regional government - frankly England is too small for that. However, historically and culturally Cornwall is quite distinct, as is the territory I am proud to call Wessex."
Posts: 346
Posted:
17.Oct 2005 - 01:46
Shouldn't that be "was an industrial nation"? Or don't they want to admit that Cornwall's industry has been decimated and that it isn't a county?
Posts: 346
Posted:
19.Oct 2005 - 18:51
http://www.samueljohnson.com/tnt.html
Posts: 831
Posted:
24.Oct 2005 - 12:50
Yes, AL Rowse published an extract of this in his little land of Cornwall. As with many Cornish things he was pretty equivocal about it - but the very bottom line is that it does compare Cornwall with revolutionary America
Posts: 346
Posted:
24.Oct 2005 - 18:59
More specifically, he uses the idea of Cornish independence to ridicule the calls for American independence. So the next time some Unionist trots out the "Cornwall could never survive on its own" line, you can counter with "you lot said that about the USA"!
Posts: 4667
Posted:
28.May 2006 - 14:09
Posts: 1119
Posted:
28.May 2006 - 16:04
Do you have the full context of that quote to hand please?
There is one quote around somewhere -17/19th C? - where the Cornish were, similarly, also categorised as 'negroid' !!?
TGG
Posts: 4667
Posted:
28.May 2006 - 16:42
Posts: 1119
Posted:
28.May 2006 - 17:43
TGG
Posts: 742
Posted:
28.May 2006 - 18:49
I think I would prefer being classed as anything in preference to being representitive of American culture ..... but then it could be worse if we forget New Englanders are American ( ..think Bush).
Only kidding American and New Englander friends
Posts: 334
Posted:
22.Sep 2006 - 13:43
http://www.proj...de%20pdf.pdf
Posts: 2744
Posted:
22.Sep 2006 - 14:31
Posts: 196
Posted:
23.Sep 2006 - 02:44
Posts: 742
Posted:
23.Sep 2006 - 08:07
Slightly tongue in cheek - were the visiting Methodist preachers the Cornish equivalent of todays Muslim Imans?
and regarding "...manifested a degree of political awareness and a well-defined sense of international Cornish identity".
Although as I said above I'm not keen on the quote that the "Cornish were looked upon as representative of American culture" it's a shame that well-defined sense of international Cornish identity was broken (even if with a struggle it's being re-established slowly) as we would be less like to be in a position where people have the view (including those coming in with their "big ideas" and some Cornish) that we are as a people totally undynamic, 50 years behind the times and relatively unworldly.
Re quote from TGG, "There is one quote around somewhere -17/19th C? - where the Cornish were, similarly, also categorised as 'negroid' !!?" Of course we know that this term has been used by many if not all ethnic groups (eg in the US by the Cornish against the Irish) to boost or protect their own standing. It's often used by one group when they perceive another group either as a physical threat or an economic one.
If the term 'negroid' was used for the Cornish prior to or in the 17th C I would think that any region coming under the authority of the English crown in which there was a sizeable proportion of the population that didn't use English as their every day vernacular and therefore weren't 'exactly English' could be seen as a possible threat.