Posts: 8
Posted:
17.Nov 2005 - 19:04
Was the September 17 conference at Tremough supposed to resolve the various issues dividing the 3 groups? Unless I have been missing something there seems to be a deafening silence on this.
I think that quite a few potential learners are waiting to see what happens on the spelling issue before they commit themselves.
Can anyone answer these questions? Thanks
Posts: 694
Posted:
17.Nov 2005 - 19:25
Posts: 761
Posted:
17.Nov 2005 - 21:09
However, at present Kerrier are using Kemmyn and Carrick using Unified for their road signs.
Kemmyn spokespeople were against the use of experts and wanted to use their system by force majeure claiming that more people spoke their version. This may be true, but common use does not mean correct use.
Most countries today have language standardisation committees to ensure that new words are introduced correctly.
Posts: 2305
Posted:
17.Nov 2005 - 21:25
"Splitter!"
Posts: 928
Posted:
18.Nov 2005 - 11:23
Nice one strop. And what about the People's Popular Front of UCR? He's over there...The current status is that the vast majority of "grass roots" speakers simply want a decision to be made so that they can start to support the officially-promoted version. The people at the "top" are the ones who are prevaricating, either because they don't want to offend people by making a choice their friends won't like, or worse because they are worried that their personal favourite isn't the one which is chosen, which is tragic. I think one of the forms is the common-sense one to use, but I'd probably learn a different one if the one I learnt isn't picked.
At the conference at Tremough (which I attended) all but a handful of people were (a) in favour of a decision and (b) said that they'd accept it even if it wasn't their first choice. So we're vastly in favour of a decision - so why isn't one forthcoming? The delay is putting me and many others off bothering to speak or write yn Kernewek.
I don't personally think that we need external experts to advise us as the arguments are all well known, and no expert will be unbiased. What we need is the panel driving this to actually have the guts to make a decision, and to do so ASAP. The language itself is the only thing that will suffer if we delay.
Posts: 339
Posted:
18.Nov 2005 - 12:27
More seriously I would prefer them to take their time and get as many "leaders" of the different groups agreeing than for us to have a few more years of uncertainty.
Posts: 928
Posted:
18.Nov 2005 - 15:35
Posts: 339
Posted:
18.Nov 2005 - 16:05
I like it.Sorry didn't want to get your blood up to boiling temp or you'll be writting in big red letters.
and he also said
I take your point
Posts: 8
Posted:
18.Nov 2005 - 16:13
I personally would like to learn Cornish but watching this makes me wonder if it is even worth it. At the risk of alienating some, I would like to make a few observations.
I have studied other Celtic languages and I think Modern Cornish can be likened to Manx with its English-based orthography. Unified seems to be mired in the past, thus the need for UCR, and Kemmyn seems as if it was too hastily adopted by people overly impressed with computer technology without fully understanding it.
These are just the impersonal observations of a U.S. resident who would sincerely like to see Cornish revived. These comments are not offered to start a flame war on this site, I would just appreciate some feedback on my thoughts.
Posts: 339
Posted:
18.Nov 2005 - 16:14
Mrs Gee for the Moderns on foot in front of gate swinging axe and Mr Lew of the Unifieds other side of gate with top hat and dag shouting "Plema gwythyas cres?" (when you want one?)
Posts: 2305
Posted:
18.Nov 2005 - 22:29
Posts: 687
Posted:
19.Nov 2005 - 03:38
Some feedback on your thoughts - Firstly the impression outside of Cornwall is sometimes that the use of kemmyn is not popular. This is far from the truth the vast majority of Cornish speakers use kemmyn. I don't think there is any real intransigence going on but the organisations that represent the mainstream of Cornish language use simply take longer to respond to these issues because they ahve to consult with a much larger membership. The kemmyn orthography was not hastily adopted, it has now been in use for nearly twenty years, and during that time has undergone some minor changes and developments under the influence of the current language speaking community. Nobody would argue that any orthography is perfect but from the point of view of learning a language Kemmyn is pretty good. If you want to learn Cornish I would encourage you to use any orthography - it doesn't really matter. A Cornish speaker can largely understand any form.
Because Kemmyn is the more widely used though, you will probably find there are more learning materials associated with that form. Those that don't use kemmyn largely use unified because they didn't want to change twenty years ago - people like my mum. UCR is the new kid on the block and in my opinion offers no benefits over kemmyn and certainly doesn't command widespread usage.
In terms of road signs - road signs have been going up in Cornwall in different forms for over a hundred years. The reason why there is a chance of more road signs in Kerrier is due to a campaign lead by Mebyon Kernow councillors and is completely independent of other language developments. MK which supports the cornish language (in whatever form) takes the view that when the language is used the people using it should be free to choose their own preferred form. At the end of the day, it is much more important that the language is used than having an argument over spelling. In the case of Kerrier the MK councillors who are leading the campaign, use Kemmyn, therefore the signs should be in Kemmyn. Any form of bilingual signage is better than none at all. (which seems not to be the view of some notable independent councillors in that area!) Some of which have sat on the council for decades and done nothing to try to implement a bilingual policy.
Posts: 2305
Posted:
19.Nov 2005 - 04:05
Posts: 2360
Posted:
19.Nov 2005 - 08:53
I very much agree with this and I have made much more progress with Kemmyn.
That's right. It's the single most visible thing that can be done to promote Cornish culture. There has been too much talk and not enough action. As the signs go up, people's interest in place name meaning and Kernewek, in general, will be self-perpetuating.
When I visited Land's End in September, there were a whole group of people photographing the new bilingual archway on the way in and on the way out. It sets a good impression. Let's get on with it.
Posts: 318
Posted:
19.Nov 2005 - 11:19
stropps you've got to look around and see the number of different 'Methodist' factions in the old days to understand that if Cornishmen (and possibly women, but I can't speak for them) can find a reason to fall out over something they in general really agree on they will.
ps and that might include you these days ???
Mike wrote
I tend to agree. I started off learning unified as that was all there was around. Dick Gendall and Tim Saunders had some different ideas but at the time weren't a big issue and in fact I found very helpful Dick with pronunciation and Tim with development of terms and words suitable for modern usage. In the end it will be self perpetuating, but I also see this discussion, debate and even arguments as indicating Cornish is once more alive!!
Posts: 8
Posted:
19.Nov 2005 - 16:09
The idea that there are no impartial outside experts doesn't seem correct. I am sure that there are Welsh, Breton, Gaelic or even non-Celtic linguists who might help to defuse this situation.
I am sure that the English are thoroughly enjoying the spectacle of Celtic infighting, confirming their stereotypical view of 'us' (said as a
Hiberno-Welsh descendant). More Cornish solidarity (mar plek/pleg).
Posts: 928
Posted:
21.Nov 2005 - 16:09
1 - The new Cornish Language Partnership is in the process of being established and will replace the Advisory and Steering Groups. Full details of the Partnership will soon be on the C(C)C website.
2 - A report on the conference is being printed at this very moment and will be distributed shortly.
3 - A Cornish language version of the Cornwall "blaze marque" (uh? :?) has been agreed with "Kernow" instead of "Cornwall".
4 - The Cornish Subcommittee of the European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages is holding an open seminar on "Funding from Europe" at 10am on November 26th at the Cornwall Centre, Alma Place Redruth.
Posts: 694
Posted:
21.Nov 2005 - 17:22
Uhhh! (regarding the "...has been agreed with "Kernow" instead of "Cornwall".) But thanks for the information generally lyskerrys.
Posts: 2360
Posted:
21.Nov 2005 - 17:53
www.cornwallenterprise.co.uk/ docs/Branding%20Blaze%20Marque.doc
Just download the .doc file and gaze with awe. I quite like it but it doesn't take a great imagination to replace 'Cornwall' with 'Kernow'
Posts: 8
Posted:
21.Nov 2005 - 18:47
Posts: 928
Posted:
22.Nov 2005 - 09:32
Posts: 2360
Posted:
22.Nov 2005 - 10:50
www.cornwallenterprise.co.uk/ docs/Branding%20Blaze%20Marque.doc
Copy the above into Google and search. You then need to download the Word document.
Only part of the link highlights on here
Posts: 928
Posted:
22.Nov 2005 - 17:05
WOW! That's INCREDIBLE! It makes me want to rush out and buy EVERYTHING with that label on it!
I wonder how many thousands of pounds of OUR money was handed over to some wanky design company to produce that?
Posts: 928
Posted:
22.Nov 2005 - 17:14
Posts: 1347
Posted:
22.Nov 2005 - 18:16
Hopefully not a lot - it's dire :shock:
Posts: 392
Posted:
22.Nov 2005 - 18:23
Or the
Posts: 2360
Posted:
22.Nov 2005 - 18:31
Posts: 8
Posted:
22.Nov 2005 - 19:19
ease of acquisition,
esthetics
and authenticity.
(How about all three?)
Whatever the outcome, it seems as if they are doing a great disservice to potential supporters of the language. Who is even going to purchase learning materials with these issues up in the air?
Posts: 928
Posted:
23.Nov 2005 - 10:41
Does anyone else remember all the defacing of the English Heritage roses on road signs, which led to C(C)C running a competition to come up with a replacement, and that schoolgirl's St Piran's flag (surprise surprise) logo was chosen with a big fanfare across the media? Been put up on a lot of roadsigns, hasn't it? I would estimate, maybe....none. Anywhere. Total waste of time and money and just a face-saving exercise to stop the graffiti.
Posts: 2360
Posted:
23.Nov 2005 - 11:38
Posts: 135
Posted:
23.Nov 2005 - 13:17
Same here - anyone know when the rest are going up ? :?
Historic signs case trio bound over
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1768853.stm
Cornish flag is favourite for signs
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2415127.stm
A Cornish sign of the times
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3197458.stm
Posts: 1347
Posted:
23.Nov 2005 - 13:22
Posts: 928
Posted:
23.Nov 2005 - 14:01
Edit: This could be the reason why the roadsign flag hasn't taken off (from BBC website):
Posts: 1347
Posted:
23.Nov 2005 - 14:11
Posts: 2360
Posted:
23.Nov 2005 - 14:46
But we've ended up with neither flag or coat of arms :!:
Posts: 928
Posted:
23.Nov 2005 - 15:03
Posts: 2360
Posted:
23.Nov 2005 - 15:17
Unregistered User
Posted:
30.May 2006 - 16:57
For instance, a new edition of the UCR dictionary was published recently. The news article in the WMN featured large photographs of two individuals and lengthy doses of their opinions, which were strongly anti Kernewek Kemmyn and, of course, pro UCR.
One was the present chair of Agan Tavas (which was originally set up to promote spoken Cornish, before it was 'reconstituted' at a secret meeting to which no users of Kernewek Kemmyn were invited - though they were the bulk of its membership! - and (surprise, surprise) changed into an anti- Kernewek Kemmyn splinter-group). In the course of the article he admitted that his Cornish was not good, but believed that he could teach Cornish to Grade Two standard.
This same individual has been attacking the Cornish Language Board, Kernewek Kemmyn and anyone who supports it for two decades - yet in that time has only managed to accumulate enough Cornish to teach - in his opinion (!) - to Grade Two standard.
So Agan Tavas has a near-beginner (in ability) for a chairman, who shows no hesitation in voicing extreme criticisms of the Cornish language mainstream and who questions the judgement and settled will of people whose ability in Cornish he will never have the ability or knowledge to comprehend.
The previous past chairman of agan Tavas also appeared - with his opinions - in the article. He has self published a 'text book' for beginners stuffed with elementary mistakes which would have failed him Grade One. Yet another imposter whose opinions about the language are in inverse proportion to his ability to use it!
If anyone wants to know where Cornish is going and where the expertise, ability and support is - look for publications and membership. Almost all Cornish language publications including teaching texts (titles into three figures) are by Kesva an Taves Kernewek (the Cornish language Board) and Kowethas an Yeth Kernewek (the Cornish Language Fellowship).
The Fellowship has around three hundred members, with a high proportion of that number being fluent speakers with a provable ability (by examination results). Agan Taves can't even get a half-decent speaker for a chairman these days...
Kernewek Kemmyn is by far the best spelling on offer. To start with, it is a system, which the others are not. Secondly it represents the sounds of Cornish simply and clearly - great to teach with, great to learn with. Thirdly - very few indeed use anything else, and very little is published in anything else.
Finally, any 'compromise' would result in forcing an unwanted orthography on probably 90% of Cornish speakers, and would force teachers and learners to use an inferior product which would make it more difficult to teach and learn Cornish.
What would be the point of that?
Machiavelli Tregagle
Posts: 1031
Posted:
30.May 2006 - 17:35
Given the PR points, preceding the above quote; the PR comment in favour of Kemmyn on another thread - http://www.cornwall24.co.uk/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=18054&sid=b60653efb7c50d43a7b2ca164385081b#18054 - and, the apparent absence of any input from the other language clubs, surely, an external academic assessment of the orthographies, could resolve the situation beyond any doubts and recriminations?
Myself, and others, fail to see why this course of action seems to be so strongly resisted? The above predicted 'downside' of a compromise may well be imaginary and/or, potentially, not happen at all!! 8)
TGG
Posts: 1814
Posted:
30.May 2006 - 18:08
Unregistered User
Posted:
30.May 2006 - 18:42
Posts: 1814
Posted:
30.May 2006 - 23:03
Posts: 4
Posted:
7.Jun 2006 - 22:12
The playing field is level, however, and if this individual's own work and level of contribution is up to it he should think about about approaching Simon Parker for a double page spread in his own right. Hypothetically we would look forward to an attempt at something interesting but can appreciate, with, compassion, the personal case here for a low profile.
More troubling though is the high level of inaccuracy in the posting with regard to the original article and further information would be helpful to see if this type of hysterical hyperbole is in reality a trait of other outporings from this source.
Finally, the dictionary gives a few telling insights:
Machiavellian - 'perfidious in conduct or action'
- 'ruled by expediency rather than morality'
An obvious point, and one that is directly counteractive to the underlying 'Machiavelli Tregagle' message is that something so vitally important to Cornwall as the language should never, ever, be 'ruled by expediency rather than morality'.
Posts: 1791
Posted:
7.Jun 2006 - 22:31
"very well respected linguists/language historians as chairmen and of Nicholas Wiliams who is the only professional Celtic linguist applying rigorous academic practices to the Cornish language."
We'd just speak it!
Posts: 1814
Posted:
8.Jun 2006 - 12:03
Swahili is a "Real" language, but we don't "Just speak it". What are you on about?
And that nonsense about N Williams being the only person "applying rigorous academic practices" is laughable.
Posts: 877
Posted:
9.Jun 2006 - 23:10
Unregistered User
Posted:
10.Jun 2006 - 00:32
Unregistered User
Posted:
10.Jun 2006 - 09:55
thsv gl vrshn txt n Kwk. Ftla geno n skrf?
1 an / unn
2 dew / diw 2s (dewis) pr2l (pur dewl)
3 tri / tre / tr
4
5
6 hweg 6os (hweg os)
7
8 eth / yth m8 3 (my eth tre) j8 an jeth / an jydh
9
10 deg, m 8 r 10ol (my eth war dhy'goel)
ss mos 3 (esos ow mos tre)
p s ta (piw os ta)
d l (da lowr)
d w (dha weles)
fg (fatla genes?)
ypdmr (yn poynt da meur ras)
nd (nos da)
md (myttin da)
mr (meur ras)
thsv (yth esov)
Posts: 2541
Posted:
10.Jun 2006 - 12:30
In fact UCR is not full of flaws - who says so? A qualified linguist?
Seriously, if Cornish is to survive and prosper, any standard form must be acceptable for university study. That's where the old Unified fell down, not that you could blame Nance. He did the best with the material he had. Personally, I preferred Jenner.
So Unified had acknowledged faults and all that should have been done was to address those faults. KK didn't do it. It merely introduced a radically new spelling and questionable pronunciation. The original faults are still there plus many of its own making - even the mathematics used in the computer programming is faulty, as shown by OSearcoid, a univeristy mathematician. Ye Gods, if the foundation is faulty, then the whole house can fall down.
If we (all of us) can sort out these faults, both original and modern, then we're getting somewhere. If we end up with a language that is recognisably Cornish, does not blur distinction from other languages like Breton and Welsh, remaisn true to tradition and is academically acceptable, then we're there.
It's all attainable if we can ease up on blind loyalties and start to remember that is not about personalities. Forget Jenner, Nance, Caradar, Gendall, George, Williams etc. Let's start concentrating upon Cornish. Criticism of each other's current systems is valid, if it's constructive. At the moment, there's too much personal sniping and devious tactics. Isn't it better to say: "Look, that is wrong, and this is why", and not be called a prat, sad or petty-minded for doing so. How else are we going to learn and then put that to good use?
Marhak
online
Posts: 4093
Posted:
10.Jun 2006 - 14:20
That sounds good to me. I want to learn Cornish but at the moment i am just not going to commit myself to a system that might not be picked and later be shown to be full of flaws. I am not sure but i think it possible many others feel the same way, so sort it out!
Sod Cornish for the moment i'm going to learn Breton; sorry but its your fault.
Posts: 268
Posted:
10.Jun 2006 - 22:01
FLB, support from maybe a surprising quarter;
In the absence of a mutually agreed standard form of Kernewek, and, it has to be said, in the number of people who speak the language, it makes more sense for me to press on with Kembrek/Cymraeg (Welsh).
Your Breton learning (and my Welsh learning) should help me and thee understand Kernewek in due course.
Diolch yn fawr/meur ras, nos da,
Patrick
Unregistered User
Posted:
10.Jun 2006 - 22:49
Acceptance at last that Kernewek is nothing more than a bastardisation of Welsh, Breton and the remnants of the old language.
Posts: 877
Posted:
11.Jun 2006 - 08:55
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cornishorthography/
As for Guest, well what can i say except that once again someone makes a comment that is totally false. It is obvious that you no nothing about the Language, how it was revived and what methods were used. No knowledge at all about where and how many words are from Cornish sources, and what the gaps were that needed filling. So unless you have an in depth knowledge of such, I think you should keep your ignorant (used in it's proper context) comments to yourself and those other people who keep their minds closed, thank you.
Posts: 2541
Posted:
11.Jun 2006 - 13:21
Oll an gwella,
Marhak
Posts: 268
Posted:
11.Jun 2006 - 19:51
Not at all, Guest. Kernewek is a language in its own right. I was only saying that by learning Breton or Welsh, that would make learning Kernewek much easier - the Brythonic P-Celtic languages are closely related ("nos da" is identical in Cornish and Welsh). Similarly, if you learn any one of French, Spanish or Italian then understanding and learning the other two is much easier.
As I live in east Devon I'm closer to parts of Wales than some parts of Kernow. That, and weight of numbers, make learning Cymraeg first more practical.
Patrick
Posts: 1814
Posted:
12.Jun 2006 - 09:58
Nah....maybe marshmallows though!
The problem is that there are no (and perhaps there cannot be?) any unbiased Cornish linguists, so any comments from a language expert is (at present) bound to be biased. I don't understand your insistence on universities and qualified linguists (perhaps a cynic would suggest it's because you support UCR and N Williams is the only university fellow studying Cornish?
). There are many Cornish experts with no linguistic qualifications beyond the Kesva exams, who know far more about Cornish than someone would who had done a Bachelor's degree in Cornish, so insisting on a University-led study of the language is clearly unnecessary. When Kemmyn was introduced, people with great expertise in Cornish accepted it as a better system, including Wella Brown, and if people with that much experience of the language could accept it as a suitable successor to Unified, then I think it's passed the test of academic rigour with flying colours. The fact that one academic today in the shape of N Williams disagrees is neither here nor there, academics in every field disagree with each other all the time.(Yet another University plug. You are ignoring the fact that Ken George has a perfectly competent grasp of mathematics having done university-level research in astronomy.) You imply that Ken ran a program and just blindly accepted the output as Kemmyn. That is blatantly untrue, the results were analysed by hand and are still being updated. (E.g. the new discussions about the spelling of God in Ken's publication of Bywnans Ke.)
The use of computers to produce lists of the words that were rhymed together in the historical texts is surely a positive thing and means we no longer have to trawl through them by hand looking for words?
Ah yes, constructive. "Kenn's Kreation". "Kagla didn't exist until 1986" etc etc.
You spotted that?
Look mate, Kemmyn has passed the test of academic rigour with many if not most Cornish language experts, and one academic disagreeing doesn't detract from that. Kemmyn is easier to teach and learn thanks to its regular spelling. Kemmyn has most users and is most active in publications. Why therefore are you against its uptake as a SWF? It's obviously not set in stone and I personally think that once (if ever
) we pick a SWF, that every five or ten years there should be a language conference to look at the SWF and update it in small ways only in the light of new evidence, discoveries and analysis, but we really do need to make the decision ASAP, and I can't see any reason why not to choose Kemmyn.Gets off soapbox, brushes self down and goes to the pub. Anyone coming?
Posts: 1
Posted:
19.Jun 2006 - 21:49
A researcher is holding a glass of liquid in each hand and stops 100 people at random in a Cornish town. He says to each one of them " My left hand glass has an element of Ascorbic acid in it and my right hand glass contains some Acetic acid, which one can you safely drink ? You may phone a friend, your mother, or a chemist. "
Even though the person being asked knows how to drink, and sees the liquid looks like water, who would he/she phone ?
Posts: 1814
Posted:
19.Jun 2006 - 22:12
Posts: 2541
Posted:
10.Jul 2006 - 22:00
I, too, know my astronomy - have been involved in it since I was a kid. I can name any star in the sky that has a name and, with most of them being Arabic, I can translate them too (even into Cornish). But what does that prove about any ability I may have regarding the language. Non sequitur.
Ken has said many times over the years that his Kemmyn system was perfect. But now, someone called Bailey (who he?) has "discovered" a "new" phoneme - this brings in the latest spelling of God in the KK system. "New" phoneme? What happened to the "perfect" system.
In fact, it's not a new phoneme at all. Way before this was ever brought up, Williams discussed it in Cornish Today (1996).
And what am I, or any other interested party, to make of a guy who stands up at the Tremough conference (last Sept.) and makes the astonishing announcement that the publication of his "Pronunciation and Spelling in Revibed Cornish" was as significant a work as Darwin's Origin of Species?
I was there. That announcement was at first greeted with a stunned silence and then I heard a voice say: "Oh, my God, the ego has landed!"
I can only leave it to others to consider what was truly behind such an incredible statement. It was the subject of several discussions afterwards but, for my part, I merely felt sad and thought: "Is this what the language of my forefathers has come to?" While such attitudes persist, Cornish can have no future as a community tongue. Others seem to have claimed it as their own personal property: Don't mess with MY system!
I can only hope that such people can be sidelined from the forthcoming debate - the language is not their personal property but the property of us all, and the majority want a say in its future. What can you say when Cornish is actually being taught in a school and some wiseacre persistently rings that school to insist that they are teaching the "wrong sort of Cornish". (Yes, that really happened). Is this the sort of person we need? What is that person's intent towards the future of the language? Such an attitude will only succeed in finally killing it stone dead - or was that the intent all the time? I'm far from alone in asking that question over the years.
As for taking the majority view, well, have you taken a look at this site's poll lately?
Marhak
Posts: 2541
Posted:
10.Jul 2006 - 22:01
I, too, know my astronomy - have been involved in it since I was a kid. I can name any star in the sky that has a name and, with most of them being Arabic, I can translate them too (even into Cornish). But what does that prove about any ability I may have regarding the language. Non sequitur.
Ken has said many times over the years that his Kemmyn system was perfect. But now, someone called Bailey (who he?) has "discovered" a "new" phoneme - this brings in the latest spelling of God in the KK system. "New" phoneme? What happened to the "perfect" system.
In fact, it's not a new phoneme at all. Way before this was ever brought up, Williams discussed it in Cornish Today (1996).
And what am I, or any other interested party, to make of a guy who stands up at the Tremough conference (last Sept.) and makes the astonishing announcement that the publication of his "Pronunciation and Spelling in Revibed Cornish" was as significant a work as Darwin's Origin of Species?
I was there. That announcement was at first greeted with a stunned silence and then I heard a voice say: "Oh, my God, the ego has landed!"
I can only leave it to others to consider what was truly behind such an incredible statement. It was the subject of several discussions afterwards but, for my part, I merely felt sad and thought: "Is this what the language of my forefathers has come to?" While such attitudes persist, Cornish can have no future as a community tongue. Others seem to have claimed it as their own personal property: Don't mess with MY system!
I can only hope that such people can be sidelined from the forthcoming debate - the language is not their personal property but the property of us all, and the majority want a say in its future. What can you say when Cornish is actually being taught in a school and some wiseacre persistently rings that school to insist that they are teaching the "wrong sort of Cornish". (Yes, that really happened). Is this the sort of person we need? What is that person's intent towards the future of the language? Such an attitude will only succeed in finally killing it stone dead - or was that the intent all the time? I'm far from alone in asking that question over the years.
As for taking the majority view, well, have you taken a look at this site's poll lately?
Marhak
Posts: 1031
Posted:
11.Jul 2006 - 01:42
Have I missed something somewhere, or has some postings to this thread been deleted? I cannot see what your reply is responding too
On the Poll front, I have been informed that it has been rigged??? I am still waiting for Admin to respond to my query [from backalong] on the legitimacy of any poll - if that allegation is true?
TGG
Posts: 2541
Posted:
11.Jul 2006 - 07:51
In retrospect, my response reads a bit too harsh (and contains my usual typos). What I was trying to put over was that there have been events and statements in the past that must not be repeated if we're going to get anywhere. The trouble is that to put that over with examples looks as if I'm having a go, rather than simply reporting facts.
How do you rig an independent poll that everyone can freely take part in?
Posts: 1814
Posted:
11.Jul 2006 - 09:17
I know that there are people with mega-egos on all sides of the debate, and these are the ones we need to sideline, however large their past contributions, in order for the move towards an SWF to continue smoothly. I think it's important to remember that the language is larger than the egos who are sticking their oars in at the moment, and we shouldn't let ourselves get too downhearted about things but make decisions for the future of the language itself.
As for the poll, before it was rigged, KK was well in front; since it was rigged, the results are meaningless. Have you noticed the number of votes? Over 10,000, when few of the other polls even make it to 200!
I thought we didn't want a rigged poll?
The problem with a poll comes from people lobbying friends and neighbours with no knowledge of Cornish to register to vote even when they have no interest in it - that would lead to the best lobbying team winning. People like George Ansell and other luminaries in Cornish-speaking circles will have a good feel for how many users there are of each system, so I don't see what's wrong with letting them make a decision based on numbers without having to go to a vote.
Posts: 1814
Posted:
12.Jul 2006 - 09:12
Bydh ena po bydh pedrek!
Posts: 2541
Posted:
12.Jul 2006 - 16:58
I do hope that a consensus based upon common sense will emerge so that we can move on. The language can't afford to stagnate now, especially at the stage we've reached.
If you're going, then good luck with it.
Oll an gwella (good spelling that - matches all four current versions),
Marhak
Posts: 1814
Posted:
12.Jul 2006 - 22:25
The deadline is IMO far too long but it is at least there, if it hadn't been I think I'd have abandoned the language movement as a lost cause and stuck with KK whatever the outcome. I still really want to shake people and shout "Get a move on!"
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Posted:
13.Jul 2006 - 15:12
Was really sorry not to be there but currently have both professional and medical demands which are a pain in the arse (but medical probs not centred there).
Yeah, it does seem like a long time but sometimes it's worth taking the time to achieve the right result. It may well use up much needed money but only in th short term - if all goes well, it will lead to much, much more money.
For my part the sooner a SWF is decided upon, the better - then we can all return to the sort of across-the-board cooperation that existed before 1986, and put teams together to rewrite and re-present all Cornish publications, and compose new ones. Let's really go for bright and attractive presentation. We are going to need, above all else, simple text books for kids, graded in detail to match years of learning. AND a Cornish-based publisher, printer and distributor to tackle it all.
Once we get these initial concerns sorted out, then we all have one hell of a busy and bloody worthwhile future.
Kemer wyth
online
Posts: 4093
Posted:
13.Jul 2006 - 15:23
At long last, they seem to have accepted that which John A and myself have been pressing for for a very long time - standardisation of the language will most definitely take place as a priority. Hopefully, that process should be complete by next May so that a standard form can be introduced into schools the following September. All that remains is for the three factions to accept the recommendations of independent linguistic experts. We had a public acknowledgement that the Panel would follow any such recommendations. At long last the squabbling, at least so far as the language is concerned, seems to be over.
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Posted:
13.Jul 2006 - 15:33
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Posted:
13.Jul 2006 - 16:20
But I digress. While I am obviously happy that something will come of this, I am concerned at how much this long-winded consultation process will cost and how little of the £600k pot will be left to actually promote the language afterwards. If as seems likely from the roadmap described yesterday, we end up with a hotch-potch mixture of the existing forms, we will wind up, only SIX MONTHS before rolling out Cornish teaching in schools, trying to promote a version of Cornish with no dictionaries, no publications, no users and no teachers. Not a very good position to be in.
PS - Marhak, glad to hear that the...err...seat of your medical problems lies elsewhere!
Posts: 2541
Posted:
13.Jul 2006 - 20:14
A technical question for the KK users. I note that in the KK system, "evening" is "gorthugher". I can't find a "gh" in any written source - they're all "w", sometimes "wh" (e.g. gorthewer; guthewhar, etc). Any idea why "gh" was decided upon? (I don't have an Eng-Breton dictionary, so unable to find a clue in that direction).
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Posted:
13.Jul 2006 - 20:55
Having a language and a Cornish tick box on the census form in 2010 is vitally important and the language forum should be pressing for this as a part of recognition and acceptance that we exisit.
We are given crumbs and seem to be happy in starvation.
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Posted:
13.Jul 2006 - 23:17
Remember this, Joe - it took fifteen years to persuade the buggers to include Cornish on the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages. We got there and every success we grind out of them makes their own "everyone shall be English. Resistance is futile" case that much weaker. Come to think of it, aren't they like the Borg: "You will be assimilated. We will add your distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile." The fuller quote is even more apt, but I can't remember it all - will have to watch First Contact again.
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Posted:
13.Jul 2006 - 23:49
In the VC there is "brech" for arm; in KK "ch" is used to represent English "ch" so maybe KG chose "gh" as a reasonable replacement for OC "ch". Better ask him for the precise reason.
To my mind it's irrelevant anyway, as I've said before, modern English pronounciation varies far more widely across the UK than the various forms of Kernewek do from each other, and English spelling is often way off the mark, so provided a spelling system for Kernewek isn't too far from the original texts, who cares how it's spelt? We can keep Unys and Kemmyn pronounciations as dialects if that's what people want, I don't care - I just want a (preferably phonemic) system to be agreed on ASAP!
Posts: 2541
Posted:
14.Jul 2006 - 06:41
I've always used Lhuyd as a guide to pronunciation (being down here in Penwith). I highly recommend Dick Gendall's "The Pronunciation of Cornish", which is an analysis and breakdown of Lhuyd's information.
I don't think we'll end up with a "hotch-potch" mix of current systems but (I hope) a well thought out compromise between the current systems. Whatever - I've not felt as optimistic about the language for years. Chin up, ole pard.
Posts: 1814
Posted:
14.Jul 2006 - 08:59
Even if it does turn out to be a well thought out compromise, my previous point about having a SWF with no users or literature only six months before starting in schools still stands. Unless we pick one of the existing systems and make only minor changes to it in order for it to become acceptable to users of the three strands, we're going to have a massive task on our hands to be ready in time. My suggestions to the process would be to either start with KK and change it enough to make it acceptable to the others, or to start with Unys/UCR and make it phonemic.
I strongly believe that a phonemic system makes a language far easier to teach and to learn, which is an important consideration - but you may have noticed that before...
Posts: 687
Posted:
14.Jul 2006 - 10:21
Looking at gerlyver kernewek kemmyn: Gorthugher
contains the word gorth, isn't found in Breton & Welsh,
is a word whose development is obscure, and whose spelling is derived wholly or partially on textual evidence. According to Ken It's spelling is in some doubt
; if more evidence were forthcoming, it could cause the spelling of such words to be improved. It is attested in old, middle and late Cornish, it occurs between 10 & 31 times. It is found in the VC as
gurthuper
gurth > develops to gorth
u > is the <u> sound and grapheme as used by KK but written as 'ew' occasionally in later forms.
p > is a representation not of p but the <gh> sound,
hence gorth-u-gh-er. The difference between this and gorth-ew-er in pronunciation is so subtle that most people wouldn't pick it up and certainly it is mutually understandable. For west penwithians, it may well suit the accent with longer stress on the vowels, but for the rest of us east of hayle river, it would seem to be more appropriate to use the former.
Nyhewer is another word which is problematical.
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Posted:
14.Jul 2006 - 10:40
If we are going to pick over every single word in the dictionaries to this extent we won't even have agreed the words beginning with 'A' by May, let alone have agreed on the form of the whole language. We HAVE to draw a line in the sand, work towards agreement between the forms of the language we have TODAY and MOVE ON!
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Posted:
14.Jul 2006 - 10:45
Putting cards on the table, my own concerns with KK is that some aspects of its spelling are just too far removed from textual spelling, and texts are bound to form essential study material. Also, that some conventions of KK are distinctly Breton or Welsh in character and, for me at least, this tends to blur the distinction between the languages. Those are my only real concerns and I feel that if we could concentrate on compromises in those areas, we'd be there.
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Posted:
14.Jul 2006 - 11:04
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Posted:
14.Jul 2006 - 11:21
Personally, I feel that is a strength - the difference between Cornish and Breton is small and fluent speakers can understand a great deal - our languages should be closely linked and if written forms reflect that then it is helpful to all concerned especially if you want to learn one of our sister languages.
I think people have diferent perspectives (which is probably very healthy) but the key surely is that more people should use the Cornish language regardless of written form.
Posts: 1814
Posted:
14.Jul 2006 - 12:01
I wasn't having a go at you personally above, it was just a general rail against the nitpicking people who don't like a particular form because it's actually got a half-long instead of a long vowel in three words or somesuch nonsense.
I wonder if anyone on the CLP is following the love-in on this thread and seeing how we can all get along?
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Posted:
14.Jul 2006 - 18:52
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Posted:
15.Jul 2006 - 14:50
If and when this is adopted, i am sure that it will have enough support. I just hope that most of the activists support it. With it being the form to be taught in schools, i am sure that the dinosaurs and the self proclaimists will eventually be buried in their own mire. For it is the future of our Language that is the most important.
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Posted:
15.Jul 2006 - 16:05
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Posted:
16.Jul 2006 - 01:28
Graham
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Posted:
16.Jul 2006 - 06:19
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Posted:
16.Jul 2006 - 06:41
No, we won't have to go through the dictionary from first page to last - many words remain the same in all current systems, so we can leave them alone. It's still a sizeable job but I have faith that there's enough all-round expertise to get it done. Those people, too, want a speedy conclusion to the SWF and it's been done before - the Romansch language in Switzerland, for example, where there were at least 7 different varieties. Yes, very different language but very same problems that were sorted out to the satisfaction of most (you can never please everybody and we'll have to accept that, too).
----------------------------
Ow gwlascor rag margh
Posts: 789
Posted:
16.Jul 2006 - 07:25
Posts: 877
Posted:
16.Jul 2006 - 10:31
I find that a majority of Cornish are proud of their Heritage and Language. OK they might not be active in it, are too busy or just can't be bothered. That is a long way from Coady's rash statement. They are on the whole fed up with the arguments within the Language, and like many want it settled once and for all. No-one said reviving a Language was going to be easy, but each step is a step forward. There might be obsticles, but that is a part of the path the Language has to take. I for one hope that this next 12 months will be the last we have to take to put OUR Language back to where it should be.
As for you Coady, no-one is saying that you have to be a part of it, but for god sake have some decency and let those who want it, have that right. So for all of us who support it, just shut up, ok.
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Posted:
16.Jul 2006 - 20:23
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Posted:
16.Jul 2006 - 23:34
The lack of Cornish language postings here is no reflection on the language movement as a whole. What you're extrapolating is a bit like saying, "There were no murders in my house today so the whole world's at peace."
Please can we keep this thread on topic, folks - there are plenty of other threads to discuss politics.
Posts: 687
Posted:
25.Jul 2006 - 22:26
Its often said that KK is very different to the texts, but this is from Skeul an Yeth Lyver Onan and shows how close KK is to the middle Cornish of the Ordinalia
Ordinalia: My a vyn aga sywa
K. Kemmyn: My a vynn aga sywya
O: dhe'n mernans aga gorra
KK: dhe'n mernans aga gorra
O: kekyffrys byan ha bras
KK: kekeffrys byghan ha bras.
O: Ny fynnaf, certan gasa
KK: Ny vynnav sertan gasa
O: onan vyth ol the vewa
KK: onan vydh oll dhe vywa.
Both are clearly very similar - and certainly if you had a piece of original late 15th century English it would show huge divergence from modern english in comparison.
The point I'm making is that what we are arguing over is actually very small points like the use of double consonants, the use or not of gh and some discussion over vowels.
For example above byghan which preserves the archaic and largely unvoiced gh could be maintained in the SWF but fluent users could write by'an - like english does not and doesn't both are acceptable forms
Posts: 1814
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 12:13
I think we should keep the voiced (hacked?) 'gh' - as Billy Connolly said, the Celts communicate with phlegm!
'gh' is one sound whose existance in KK confused me as it doesn't appear in Unys which is based on the same texts. Any ideas why KG included it in KK?
I'm not keen on the "by'an" suggestion, I think we should go with one pronounciation per (phonemically-spelt) word.
Posts: 687
Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 13:04
gh is a very celtic sound so personally I prefer people to use it - however in rapid speech it is very easy to soften it.
My preference is that we would all use byghan as the formal word but inevitably a minority of people will favour unvoicing the gh - that's fine - nobody has to pronounce every thing exactly the same as long as its understandable. For those people in informal reported speech - I can't see a problem of using an apostrophe to indicate missing letters. After all we already do this with a wre'ta.
Most people should use byghan.
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Posted:
26.Jul 2006 - 13:51
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Posted:
27.Jul 2006 - 14:31
However the 'First Thousand Words in CORNISH' in kemmyn is excellent and is useful for kids and learners. I also understand that Peter Rabbit is also going to be re-published.
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Posted:
29.Jul 2006 - 14:03
However, personally, as I don't aspire to any particular form of the Cornish language, I would like to see independent academics - liguists, language planners, lexicographers, applied liguistic exerts etc, etc - employed to sort out the arguments over Cornish once and for all. If left to themselves, the current community will squabble and quarrel for the next five hundred years - even then, there would be no guarantee of an conclusion!
Finally, I note the plethora of comments posted here by those who have significant knowledge of the various forms of Cornish. How many of them are qualified to pass linguistic judgement on the various orthographies?