Beach Ices at Praa Sands
Ice meeting the sand at the base of the low cliff behind Praa Sands Beach, West Cornwall. 6th January 2009....
Icicles at Trewellard Bottoms
Water seeping through a wall is turned to icicles, ate Trewellard Bottoms, where Geevor Mine meets the sea....
Winter Sunset at Levant
A late afternoon scene, at Levant Mine, West Cornwall. 7th January 2009....
Winter at Levant
The old electricity generator building, at Levant Mine, West Cornwall, during the recent cold snap. 7th Jnauary 2009....
Sorry, wrong, the Domesday survey was undertaken to establish a definitive list of the King's domesne. Apart from 4 obscure, very small manors, there was nothing else and Cornwall as an entity is not claimed, making it a Domesday desert. In stark contrast, the neighbouring English country of Devon had scores of manors listed in the King's name.
More over, and highly important is the fact that Domesday does not refer to the Stannaries - and as a result this institution most certainly cannot be claimed as part of the King's domesne lands.
It is entirely pointless making misleading, and in this case, completely erroneous statements.
Yes, the Stannaries are indeed part of the Duke's interests as they provide the means for him to obtain his income, an income to which nobody else in the UK contributes. The Cornish contribution is based on unfair discriminatory legislation that would not, if a fair opportunity arose in the courts, stand up to modern European ideals of equality before the law etc, etc, etc. Indeed, the Cornish bear the brunt of payment for the upkeep of the heir to the throne, who, if he really is for the general good, ALL citizens should contribute towards his upkeep, and are thereby treated unfairly. Having said all of that, to return to your statement that the Duchy is a defining element in our ethnicity, it is not. it merely serves to illustrate our national ststus.
It is the fact that a Duchy governs the Cornish and nobody else that is the key issue and, by so maintaining, the state is treating one group of people, who would be able to clearly define their ethnic/national credentials using exactly the same criteria as any of the other already currently recognised groups have done, from other analogous groups. The problem here is that, were the courts to upheld the Cornish position, discrimination having been proven, the discriminatory practices would have to cease - leading to no pay for the Duke of Cornwall who would then have to compensate for the accrued discrimination.
Because government departments must adhere to other discriminatory laws (they are currently the law!), such as the Duchy of Cornwall Management Acts 1863 - 1982 which requires the Treasury to look after the Duchy intersts efficiently and maximise its profits, and because the Duke can intervene and control legal proceedings (Crown proceedings Act, 1947, s. 40), together with the fact that the judiciary and legal profession swear paths of allegiance to the Crown (which includes the Duchy as part of HM in her private capacity), it serves the Duke's interests best for government departments and the judiciary to stick their legal/bureaucratic heads in the sand, thereby maintaining the otherwise unsustainable status quo as far as the Cornish are concerned.
Recognition of Cornish ethnicity/nationality whatever is officially perceived to facilitate progress in the courts in regard to a successful claim in the courts under the RRA and subsequent implications for substantial compensation.
The government, therefore ultimately, will have no choice in this matter, for reasons well explained by Kerrow, to recognise the Cornish people as being culturally different and NOT as being English.
In your opinion it might be and we have yet to see your reasons for holding this point of view. Who the hell are you to spout such an arrogant assertion?
Perhaps, you would be so good as to set your reasons out on this forum so that we can demolish them!
The Cornish are not demanding special treatment from the CRE they are merely seeking the same treatment as other analogous groups!
Forum members with similar positions to myself have repeatedly and frequently posted copious information concerning Cornish identity and ethnicity and nobody has been able to come up with anything that gets even remotely close to undermining that position. Bearing this in mind, I do not propose to go into this subject matter again, not least because I have to justify anything to you, my pard! If you require more information about the set criteria governing ethnicity, determined by Lord Fraser in the Mandla Dowell v. Lee 1983 case, please refer to Kerrow's excellent contribution above. For the rules governing "national origins" please refer to the BBC case in Scotland which set the Scottish and English as national groups for the purposes of the RRA.
Finally, I repeat, it matters not a jot what you think about Cornish ethnicity, identity, nationality, national origins or even natonal identity which are all, apart from national identity, matters to be determined by the courts alone on predetermined criteria and, fortunately, not by you.
Gee thanks. You'd made a statement regarding English people creating a picture of Cornwall as part of England. William the Conqueror in fact did this in 1086 - a whole chapter for Cornwall. Paying half-rate tax on the hideage as well!
I'll carry on supporting greater autonomy for kernow, but without "Help" from yous.
You were wrong for the very reasons I gave you subsequently, FFS!
Not at all - this is a complete distortion of the picture that I explained earlier. Take a look at Cornwall in Domesday and compare the numbers of manors mentioned as being part of the King's domesne and then compare that tiny number of 4 with the comparatively large numbers in the neighbouring English county of Devon. The Conqueror realised that there was a huge cultural difference between England and Cornwall - that's why he created his Breton half brother, Robert Earl of Mortaigne as Earl of Cornwall in the knowledge that he, as a fellow Celt would be much better accepted than any other option. Indeed, the Norman period for Cornwall was a much better period than under the Saxons, simply because the Normans accepted the differences whilst the Saxons did not, and still do not!
I'll post the long-winded response I came up with yesterday but felt was a bit too hostile - here goes:
Ok, where do we start? I shall strive to make this constructive criticism and hope to generate positive suggestions, this is not intended to be hostile or anti-Cornish in any way.
I simply do not see or hear this cultural difference when I go to Cornwall, as regards the contemporary ethnic markers. I have lived in southern England, first Bedfordshire, then (importantly) Berkshire then Devon, and now have an "RP" accent flavoured with South-western (plus the inevitable Estuary ). It isn't radically different to the modern Cornish vernacular. It is however, immediately recognisable as Southern English in Wales, Scotland, and - crucially - Northern England, which latter is the only place I've ever experienced hostility on the grounds of ethnicity - ironic considering I was born there.
Now Kerrow:
Yorkshire, Devon, Lancashire, Liverpool, Northumberland etc. Think "Middle England" not "English National Majority" to understand that many folk in these places also feel different. c) just doesn't apply these days.
Frenchie:
That's not going to get past someone born a Lancastrian:
Are you saying that Manchester, Liverpool, Preston, Blackburn etc are not part of England because the profits of bankruptcy go to the Duchy of Lancaster, not the Crown? They're handled by the same solicitors that deal with equivalent situations in Cornwall (Farrer & co).
Your spoken language is much more similar to that in adjacent parts of SW England than it is to Welsh and Scottish English, and clearly very different to Welsh and Gaelic. Even Celtic Cornish (not the vernacular) is
not the same as these other Celtic languages, whereas the spoken language has much more in common with that of Devon and nearby parts of the SW than either Cornish or Devonian dialects have with, say, Lancastrian.
These are your problems - the observed reality on the ground simply doesn't match up with your claims. (new bit added today - this isn't meant to be arrogant, it is based on an honest appraisal of personal experiences across Cornwall, England and the rest of the UK).
Now - go for socio-economic oppression via the SWRDA and SWRA and, yes, you have my full and active support (actually you get that anyway)
Saxon culture was zapped out of existence by 1066 (and all that) wasn't it? Contemporary England is really only about 700 years old - and has been no friend to the English population in general as well as to the rest of the Isles.
The point I was making Fish was that the Cornish of today have hardly played a major role in making Cornwall 'part of england'; or Cornishness an english trait for that matter.. My point relates more to modern times than events a 1000 years ago.
That's not going to get past someone born a Lancastrian:
"The Duchy of Lancaster has a remarkable history.
The inheritance had its beginnings in a grant of land made by King Henry III in 1265 to his son Edmund. Nearly a century later, in 1351, Edmund's grandson, Henry of Grosmont, received the title Duke of Lancaster, and the estate became known as the Duchy of Lancaster. "
Did this 'grant of land' apply to what had previously been accepted as a different Country? Was there a Charter made to support it, and if so were there subsequent Charters made to include the 'Kings writ' and 'power of exchequer' to the Duke of Lancaster?
"From that time onwards, the inheritance has been enjoyed by all reigning sovereigns, while being separately administered from other royal possessions".
Are the incomes from the above 'inheritance enjoyed by all reigning sovereigns' kept an official secret from the UK public? Do the accounts for this income remain outside of the FOI Act? Were the set up so as to provide a private income for a single member of the Royal family?
"The reason is political and relates wholly to the Duchy of Cornwall"
'I simply do not see or hear this cultural difference when I go to Cornwall'.
In what manner or form do you expect to see or hear these 'Cultural differences'? As Hunlef states, they are political and relate to the Duchy of Cornwall.
If, on the other hand, you mean that you do not 'find' any evidence of the Cornish being different to the english on a more local, cultural level, then I would say that you are either too english in your ways, or you haven't mixed with enough true Cornish to experience the difference.
That's just the point! That is what people like myself have been saying! The reason you don't see these differences (unless you look really hard) is because they are largely suppressed by the state which has failed to include much of this stuff in its curriculum for schools. Neither do you read anything about these matters in the press etc.
However, fortunately, there is one cultural difference that hits you immediately you cross the border - as Mike I think said - the abundance of the Cornish language in our place name elements. That is a huge cultural difference and no county of England compares remotely with it.
These, of course, are the ones that Kerrow so ably set out earlier. Unless you have got your head in a very dark place, it is difficult to fathom out how you have failed to notice their presence in Cornwall, despite the best efforts of the state to suppress them and hide them away.
The 'vernaculars' in these instances are all varieties of the English dialect and being derived from the same language one would be extremely surprised if the differences were enormous. However, our Celtic Cornish language is a very different kettle of fish.
But 'Southern English' and 'Northern English' are not defined seperate ethnicities - they cannot be as they are both English! So, pfishwick, what exactly is your ethnicity? With the greatest respect, I don't think you understand the concept as you seem to be confused about where you were born and which dialect you speak, both of which have nothing whatsoever to do with one's ethnicity.
They might 'feel' different but the simple fact remains that they are NOT different in any respect to the defined criteria on ethnicity as delineated earlier by Kerrow and which were determined by Lord Fraser in the Mandla Dowell v. Lee case in 1983.
It might be the same solicitors that deal with these issues but, in the case of the Duchy of Lancaster, it is Betty Windsor who exercises the Royal Prerogative in the Duchy, just as she does in the rest of the UK, except in Cornwall where it is exercised by her son.
The dilemma here is as follows:
Whereas Mrs Windsor is perfectly entitled to exercise the prerogative throughout the UK (except in Cornwall), according to Constitutional law, the exercise of the royal prerogative by the heir to the throne (Betty's son, Charlie Windsor), out of possession, is "void and of no legal effect".
Yet Charlie Windsor does this on a daily basis, through his prerogative rights to foreshore, wrecks, wines, royal fish, and bona vacantia, including intestacy, right here in Cornwall. If he were to do this anywhere else, then he would be acting contrary to the law.
This means that constitutionally, Cornwall is completely unique and if Charlie is acting properly, then it implies that Cornwall cannot be part of the UK, let alone England! There are no similar arguments applicable to the Duchy of Lancaster, where the prerogative rights are exercised by the head of state, just as she does in the rest of the UK and all English counties, with the exception of Cornwall.
Well it should - if they don't see the difference, that says much about Lancastrians. At least the Duke of Lancaster ensures that the proceeds of the sales of intestate estates go back into the Duchy whereas, in Cornwall, the large profits generated from the Duchy of Cornwall go mainly into Charlie's back pocket and the rest goes towards his investment portfolio that includes property all over England and now Transylvania.
In effect the Duke of Lancaster just happens to be head of state whereas the queen of England's son, the Duke of Cornwall, is exercising precisely the same prerogatives as the head of state, making him effectively the King of Cornwall which, if Cornwall were constitutionally part of England, or the UK, means that he would be acting illegally since he is 'heir to the throne out of possession'!
This is a comparison of spoken dialects of the English language, a factor which is irrelevant when one is dealing with differences of ethnic background. However, one point that you have completely missed is that the Cornish accent of English is largely derived from the way in which the Cornish language was spoken. Perhaps, the vernaculars of devon and Someset have the same derivation being as they were once oart of a lerger Celtic speaking area.
These are not my problems, they are yours, my friend. It is you that has the problem of understanding a number of basic principles. As a result, you are trying to make an argument about internationally agreed principles that have determined that I and people like me have every right to be what we claim to be whether I can prove it or not and whether you like it or not. The sneers and jibes of those who do not, or who will not, understand are of no importance to me.
Guys, you need to get out more across the whole UK. I could engage in long-winded debate over many of the points I and yous have raised - and your and my counter-points, with more counter-counter points and.. ad infinitum , but I'd rather graciously depart. Becoming Stroppygob mark II is not my ambition.
It's not just me that thinks that, it's also a legal point of view! If these identities that you are so convinced are seperate ethnic identities, then you should put your trust in a court that would surely support your point of view. Despite the fact that they have no language to their culture, other than dialects of the majority language, they have no defined territory, they have no distinct seperate folklore traditions specific to those precise areas (whatever they are!), they pprobably would fare better in the courts than would the Cornish who have an immense royal problem to cope with! Until that day in court happens, the 'Southern and Northern' English are in the same boat as the Cornish and do not officially exist.
Righto, before I take the plunge with this one, can all pro-Kernow contributers please be aware that there is no disrespect intended in any of my postings unless expressly stated - the rest are just my considered opinions based on my experience of cornwall as a nominal 'english' person.
Here we go........
Hmmm, this has always been a bit of a stumbling block for me because I'm not entirely sure how relevant some of the historical stuff actually is anymore TBH
Kind of, not by everyone certainly. Seems more of a history of the peninsular that people have adopted as their own at times, given people's varying definitions of what 'Cornish' actually is.
I'm pretty au fait with the cultural and linguistic stuff, trust me! One of my jobs basically depended on passing as a native, something I do extremely well,; over the phone or face-to-face. The fact that I find this easier than playing a geordie or a manc is what makes me question where anyone, CRE included, draws the line on things like this.
Maybe, although I'm sure Bob aka Plymouth exile would post up a link to his Y chromosome gene marker stuff to disagree! I did have a look through that and it seemed pretty conclusive.
I know there are surnames more common to the duchy than elsewhere, indeed despite my mongrel heritage and ostensibly estuary origins, my surname is brythonic welsh or cornish in origin so it can't really count for that much.
The geographical aspect is both good and bad I feel - if you were an island there would probably be no argument and if you were just another county-sized chunk of mainland there wouldn't be either, from the other perspective.
Being a peninsular is an unfortunate halfway house as it singles you out for some isolation/special treatment (like being made a duchy and keeping some traditions) but not from other types (like having no net exchange of population or obvious borders.
What you end up with is this situation of being england-but-not, with a murky account of how you got there. All very inconvenient and exploited masterfully by the powers that be, no doubt.
You'd have to get people to identify with it first - I know more kernewek than most cornish people do.
There is a lot, good to see. Shame most of the old stuff got burned after the prayer book rebellion though, loss of knowledge is always upsetting
Maybe, but homegrown religion is on the wane in general theroughout the UK so I wouldn't imagine that to be a strong point. I'm also going to have to point out all the st pirran dedications in devon that Bob loves to cite.
As an english type person, I can offer you my cast iron guaruntee that 'we' do not think 'we' are opressing 'you'.
I thoroughly concur that there is a feeling of oppression by cornish people and I think it is your strongest point TBH: the economic situation is a disaster in the duchy and need immediate attention, the other stuff seems only to detract from this.
I didn't think it was that unreasonable a point - the normans were the first ones to put their own chappie in charge of the region and lets be honest here; do you really think that William the conquerer et al would have regarded cornwall as not theirs because only a few manors were worthy of note?
Any public declaration as such would have been met with the usual burny/stabby response common to the era!
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Film con man ordered to pay £100K
The man who swindled almost £2m in a film studio scam is ordered to forfeit £100,000 by a judge.
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Fire chiefs demand a public inquiry into the delayed opening of the regional fire control centre.
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A man who admitted swindling more than £51,000 in benefits over a six-year period is jailed for 18 months.
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Three Cornish divers accused of plundering a shipwreck off the coast of Spain are to be tried in a Spanish court.
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Proposals to bring nuclear waste to Cornwall have been described as ‘absurd and irresponsible’ by Cornish MPs.
Route Partnership Plan for Penzance unnecessary
Their plan having been rejected by the public in the final exhibition in Septmber with 90% against the Route Partnership have decided to try again in mid January after a mailout and poster campaign.The Chamber of Commerce has been at the forefront of this campaign.
). It isn't radically different to the modern Cornish vernacular. It is however, immediately recognisable as Southern English in Wales, Scotland, and - crucially - Northern England, which latter is the only place I've ever experienced hostility on the grounds of ethnicity - ironic considering I was born there. 
