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Start ::  Cornwall24 Discussion ::  Cornish Language, Culture and History ::  Kernowak: A proposed Standard Written Form for the Cornish language
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Kernowak: A proposed Standard Written Form for the Cornish language

marhak Posted: 22.05.2007, 12:25

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Read back on this forum, Tim, it's all there and I'm not in the habit of repeating myself unnecessarily. And I'm not Hedley. I'm a good deal uglier than him.
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FlammNew Posted: 22.05.2007, 13:02

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Tim, try Eddie-C.



dukkha-samudaya-nirodha-magga
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Evertype Posted: 22.05.2007, 13:13

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And who are you, FlammNew?
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Palores Posted: 22.05.2007, 13:40



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QuoteEvertype wrote: "Williams knows the corpus well. Very well. You can quote him a form and often he can tell you from memory where it comes from."

Any computer which contains a file of the Cornish texts can do this, and do it better than Williams. Knowledge of the corpus is one thing, proper interpretation of the texts is another, and here Williams is sadly lacking.
QuoteWere you aware that Williams introduced the very term Prosodic Shift to the discussion about Cornish linguistic history?

Just as Lewis Carroll introduced the Jabberwock to English literature, an equally mythical beast.
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marhak Posted: 22.05.2007, 13:54

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Oh, hail the all-powerful, all-knowing computer. Williams isn't the only academic critic of KK. Instead of reacting with disparaging remarks, how about answering the criticism constructively and in the sort of detail that would confirm and consolidate your "proper interpretation" of the texts? We've been asking for years - the only response has been the tiresome and unacademic "Cornish for the 21st century", and dispargaing remarks about anyone daring to criticise. It won't do.
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Evertype Posted: 22.05.2007, 13:58

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Well, my stars. Gosh. Boy oh boy. You really got me there. Damn, your logic is stinging!

You suggested that Williams' "knowledge of Cornish was not so good as one had been led to believe". I responded informing you that he knows the corpus very well. Better than anyone I can think of. He can use a computer, too, by gosh. But he also knows the corpus. From deep and constant study. From reading it in its own right and extracting linguistic information from it. He, unlike one other scholar, does not shy away from its evidence to shoehorn Cornish into some construct of his own.

You didn't respond to my posting. You merely retorted. And I'm afraid your assertion that Williams' "interpretation of the texts" is "sadly lacking" is nothing but that. An unfounded assertion. Schoolboys who employ that tactic when learning elementary debating skills are told that it is poor form at best. It certainly isn't arguing. It's mere assertion.

Your "analogy" about the Prosodic Shift and the Jabberwock is equally childish. It's not even funny. It's just embarrassing. My point, which was about the linguistic discussion, is that he was the first one to observe the Prosodic Shift, and all researchers into Cornish accept that this shift happened, although they do not necessarily agree when it occurred. (In my own view it was a process which advanced both geographically and temporally. But then I am trained in historical linguistics, and I know that that is of course how these things happen.)

If you are a researcher who disputes that the Prosodic Shift actually occurred, perhaps you will be so good as to take off your Palores mask and own up to who you are. Else one may be tempted to dismiss you as just another pseudo-linguist crank.



edited by: Evertype, May 22, 2007 - 01:59 PM
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Bardh Posted: 22.05.2007, 21:34

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A doctor writes: there is growing concern at the increasing occurrence of Trinitarian Syndrome. The client is under the impression that he is three persons in one, and that he moves in a mysterious way. Many clients believe that they are equestrians living in the far west of Devon, while others are convinced that they are North British persons of some distinction. Belief that one is a wandering minstrel is another common way in which the Syndrome presents. Most of the time, the client's three persons co-exist peacefully, but when equilibrium is disturbed then some intriguing symptoms can become manifest.

The central theme is that an all-powerful secret organization called Kesva, on the planet Zargos, is directing a conspiracy of Cornish-speakers against the client. They were all, of course, speaking English until the moment he came in, when they switched to Cornish and started talking about him. (The fact that he does not speak Cornish himself does not affect the issue.) Initially, a client may try to silence the Cornish-speaking voices by blowing into the stomachs of dead animals, but if this fails then he may feel the need to invoke the help of an imaginary friend, usually living in a place beginning with 'H-'. However, the progress of the Syndrome may be so advanced that even horses and unicorns may start 'speaking in Cornish'. At this point, the client will feel the need for even more powerful help. This often takes the form of an interstellar hero, Captain Nynja, and his trusty band, the Neverons.

Fortunately, treatment is a simple matter. All the client needs to do is actually to learn Cornish, and meet ordinary people who use it in their daily lives. He or she will then discover that the Cornish-speakers are not engaged in a conspiracy against them, and that there is no all-powerful secret organization controlling everything. With careful support, the client will then be able to resume a normal life.
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marhak Posted: 22.05.2007, 21:52

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The equestrian lives in the far west of Cornwall. There is the whole length of a Duchy of difference.
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Bardh Posted: 23.05.2007, 21:11

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Another interesting aspect of language revivals is that the concentrate the mind without deleterious after-effects. One of their driving forces is the desire to extend the autonomy of the population group to whom the language belongs. If they are to enjoy respect and honour, then their language must demonstrate this. It must be distinctly theirs, proclaiming their identity and capable of expressing all the things that they wish to do.

This means a lot of adaptation and development. Old words acquire new meanings, new ones are created, and many are borrowed from kindred languages. Writers have to experiment a lot, testing their talents and their skills. Sometimes, they turn to old literary forms, adapt ancient legends, and give new life to mythical characters - only to find themselves ending up by creating things that are entirely new.

Sometimes, song plays an immportant part in the spread of a language revival. The power of the music gives an extra strength to the words. It's an exciting experience for everybody - and this is one of the most constructive ways of spreading joy, sharpening the wits, and deepening the sympathies.
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marhak Posted: 23.05.2007, 21:56

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Perhaps you should try it, then, Tim
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Bardh Posted: 24.05.2007, 22:53

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nos ow' tava fin
melys aer myttin
howlwynn yr blas gwin

night touching an end/sweet the air of morning/fresh sunshine with the taste of wine
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fwltur Posted: 27.05.2007, 06:43



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I see that the number of signatories on the Kernowak submission to the commission is down to 14. Is this a mistake or have the number of people supporting Kernowak actually dropped?
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Evertype Posted: 27.05.2007, 11:05

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If you check the dates on that document, you will see that it was published some weeks prior to the release of the draft proposal for KS. When, in due course, the updated proposal for KS is submitted to the Commission, it will contain the 21 signatures of the draft proposal as well as the names of the people who have indicated to us that they support the proposal and its principles.



edited by: Evertype, May 27, 2007 - 11:20 AM
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FlammNew Posted: 27.05.2007, 11:07

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I think there are still 21 names listed in the PDF file on the Kernowak website (revision 13?), Thomas (something) from the US withdrew. Where is this list of 14?



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goky Posted: 27.05.2007, 12:13

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Maybe they were purged by the Politburo, I think Thomas may have defected to KD as he is a disciple of Ben Bruch on the other side of the Atlantic.

Blog Gokypyth yw 'Agan Tavas"?, Agan Tavas yw Eddie Climo.
Agan Taves Nowyth
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