A couple of points after browsing the proposal. The use of Diacritical Marks, ummm, you say that you are not going to use them for 'Y' but for the others, surely that is a non starter. It is my opinion that that in itself makes the use of them irrelevent. Why not just use a double consanant like in KK, surely that will not upset your views on Orthography too much, plus it will not mean having to change Computer settings.
Pre Oclusion. I like this, as it brings what was naturaly happening in the Language into Modern Use.
One thing I have always had a gripe about in your theories was the one on Loan Words. I cannot agree and never will, on the use of Loan Words even though they are found in the Likes of Tregear. Where we can use a Cornish Word, or one that has been compiled by looking at Welsh and Breton, then I think the Loan Word should be dropped completely. In this Report you do not mention this aspect at all, and I for one would like an answer to it.
New Words. There have been over the past 30 Years a number of new Words that are not attested, what is your Policy on these ? Yet again this is an important point not mentioned. What are you suggesting in this Area? Are we going to have a Committee within the Tavas to look at new Words? Also where will the new Words come from, English??
Apart form these points I have not seen much else that I would not support if this is the SWF. I do however need to go through it in more depth.
You will not be flamed. You, and any KK users and anyone else, are invited to give the editing group your feedback and enter into discussion there. You don't want to just talk to me. You want to ask questions about our proposal. To engage with us. To learn. To explain your point of view. Perhaps to influence the draft. Perhaps to be won over. The reason we are having it on a public but moderated list is because we will not tolerate incivility or flames. We are serious, and we want public discussion about our proposal. Our mailing list is not some sort of trap. It's the way we've elected to get feedback.
KKC21 did not really "prove" that. And was refuted in Towards Authentic Cornish to which no response has been offered. I will not rehearse the linguistic arguments here. The Commission has copies of all of those books, and as independent linguists, will make their own decision. As a linguist myself, I don't believe that they will be convinced that criticism of KK is "unfounded". (For heaven's sake, people, we don't criticize KK because we are humorless bastards who hate people who have learnt it. We criticize it because it's got holes all through it. George did his best in 1984 with FORTRAN programs and some theories about Middle Cornish. It was an interesting experiment. It has a lot to teach us. But he got a lot wrong. There's no shame in that. The shame is in not admitting it though.)
That's what Cornish speakers do. Maybe you don't have a lot of contact with speakers of RLC. There are a lot of them. And the way that they speak is related to the way the Cornish language developed. Our draft proposal, therefore, does was Welsh and many other languages do. It allows a literary register and a colloquial register. That's the right compromise. It preserves genuine linguistic diversity.
By and large the members of the Kesva and those close to them have refused to engage with us. I myself wrote to Ken George some weeks ago, telling him what we were doing and asking him to engage with us. He did not wish to do so. That's his choice. We're still here, still working on our proposal for the Commission, still trying to make it as acceptable to the greatest number of people that we can. Any time Ken wants to talk to us, he can. We have not "excluded input from Kemmyn". Indeed, we invite you to discuss our proposal with us.
No, it doesn't. It means I'm not going to discuss this kind of speculation. I am going to stay focused on preparing a proposal for the Commission.
I am not so sure, and neither are my colleagues. But really, 51% of "few" or even 80% of "few" isn't really very meaningful. There are probably 150 really good speakers of Cornish, and even if there were 1,000 of them, it doesn't really mean very much given that there are 510,000 people living in Cornwall. The split Revival has not been effective in promoting Cornish.
Please come to kernowak.com and discuss the issues you have with the draft proposal. Or don't. Discussion here is not going to have any effect on the proposal, and won't be seen by the other authors.
Please raise your questions about orthography with the editing group at kernowak.com
Vocabulary is a different matter from orthography. If you don't want to say onderstondya even if it's attested in Tregear, say something else. A good dictionary should include the word, though. The principles of lexical development are a whole 'nother discussion, as they say, and I really have some other work I need to do. But it would be my hope that a lexicography committee will be constituted after a SWF is chosen. There are many experts on vocabulary in the Revival, from all four camps.
Folks, that's all for me here. If you want to influence what we are doing, please engage with us. If you are fence-sitting and want more information, please engage with us. If you want to argue for changes to what we are doing, via the discussion list we've set up for that purpose, at kernowak.com
I'm sorry I can't discuss the draft proposal here any longer, but our group wants people to talk to our group, not just to me.
If they were serious about public discussion then they'd be prepared to discuss with us *here* in public, not in their own private ghetto. If they're not prepared to discuss here, why have the arrogance to start a new thread on this board. There is already a long running SWF thread. I'm not sure quite what their game is, but I smell a rat. I'd say they were out to stitch up KK. Is there anyone here who really thinks it's not far and away the most successful and widely used spelling. Don't you think "Kernowak" is laughable? Why upset the applecart just to please a handful of Gendall's mates who turned their backs on the rest of us years ago, before KK was even invented?
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
We are serious about public discussion, and we have set up a publicly-available discussion list. It's not on Yahoogroup and it's not on Cornwall24. I started a thread on this board to invite people, openly, to join the conversation, which is taking place elsewhere. Not to talk to me, but to talk to all of the people in our group responsible for the forthcoming submission to the Commission.
What you say about Richard Gendall is most uncivil, and indeed is deplorable.
Maybe no one from Cornwall24 will join our discussion. That is for participants in this forum to decide. We have published a draft document, and invite people who are serious about the SWF process to engage with us. Not me. Us.
I'm not [i[able[/i] to discuss these matters on six different forums at once. I'm (and my colleagues) are not interested in "negotiating" or "winning over" people who don't want to be honest enough give us their names. We have our own list, which is public and available to anyone who wishes to subscribe.
Morvan, your use of the word "ghetto" is the same noxious dismissive rhetoric I've had to put up with for the last two years on the Yahoo group. It is tiresome. I've had enough of it. I have much energy to devote to the Cornish Revival. I have little patience left for time-wasting.
Sorry, folks. I don't mean to be uncivil. I am tired of ad-hominem attacks, and that's all that Morvran's attempt to belittle and marginalize has been. I've seen it before.
It's our draft proposal, and we have decided to invite the general public to help us improve it. Morvran's criticism of the way in which we choose to manage the way we get input seems churlish to me.
It is early days on the Kernowak discussion list, but discussion has begun there, and it has been interesting and stimulating, friendly and intelligent. Cornwall24 readers are, as I have said, invited to participate.
Evertype, that list of signatories is woefully short of Kenewek Kemmyn representation. You will inevitably attract criticism if 'Kernowak', as you call it, has no representation or consideration of the most, by far, popular form of the Cornish language.
I think you've missed the nature of some internet forums. People on C24 *want* to remain anonymous, not least because of the unpleasant personal treatment of some on here. I'm not worried about being on your forum because of your forum, but rather because I don't want my ID on C24 to be connectable to my real name. *I* don't know who is running your forum and how secure the data protection is, so I'm afraid I'll have to stay off it because of C24. Sorry, I would have liked to join! I think that it's a shame because there are people on C24 who are strongly in favour of Cornwall and Kernewek and who could contribute a lot.
I don't stipulate that it is "the most popular form" of the language.
I am of course aware that our list is short of KK representation. We are inviting KK users to read and understand the draft and to engage in dialogue with us. To date, most of the people we know (on the Yahoo forum) have found excuses for not wanting to do so.
(That's not really true. They pretend to dismiss us utterly and refuse to talk to us.)
Do you use KK? You're invited to discuss matters with us.
Evertype, I'm semi-fluent in UCR and KK. I'll look in to the Yahoo forum but will only be able to contribute on an 'artisan' basis as opposed to an academic basis.
I am the one running our forum and the members list is not available to anyone but me. If you don't identify yourself as FlammNew I won't know that you are FlammNew and neither will anyone else. You'll be just one of a number of people subscribed. There are already people subscribed whom I don't know. I've no idea if any of them have aliases on C24 or not.
I've dealt with his kind of "politesse" for two years. Read the CornishOrthography archives if you want. It's been no pleasure.
Think about it. Join in some vague number of days and lurk until you feel comfortable asking a question. I don't think I can suggest more. I know there is not a lot of trust out there.
Thing is, *I* don't know who *you* are either, other than a name. If I join your list and make the same points I'm making here it'll be pretty obvious who I am.
Can I suggest a compromise? I note from the archive that you have actually already copied to your forum comments about Kernowak made on another forum by Keith Bailey. How about you copy over the points raised here as well, I'll keep an eye on the forum archive, and depending on the responses I'll think about joining. Can't say fairer than that, can I?
Keith Bailey did raise an important point, that an internet forum is a permanent, public record of a discussion, whereas a private list can be deleted or awkward questions censored. Can I suggest that you do have a discussion on a permanent, public forum? Mailing lists are actually a bit old-fashioned in this day and age...
I wouldn't do that - the PM function has gone bananas on here and I think that everyone can see who has sent what title (but not the content) until the recipient has opened the mail!
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If I join your list and make the same points I'm making here it'll be pretty obvious who I am.
