Stranger, I wouldn't say that the process is to reunite the language, because UC, UCR and KK are basically the same language; I would say that it is to unite _speakers_ behind a single form. I cannot support Kernowak for a number of reasons which have been expressed over the last month or two: its supporters will not state that they will abide by the outcome of the agreed process; it was launched so close to the deadline for submissions to the commission that it couldn't be properly analysed by everyone; they are trying to paint KK groups in a bad light because they won't 'play ball' with the KS group - who are almost all strongly anti-Kemmyn! They are trying to sidestep the agreed process to decide on a SWF and that is not acceptable.
Yes, in September hopefully we will have a SWF. Whether we are agreed or have settled our conflicts is much less certain!
I've got a little Norwegian blood in me, but it's so dilute it can't be more than one or two red cells!
These three groups attack Modern Cornish for its composite origins. Now they try to impose a cut-and-paste composite nobody's ever used and about which even they can't agree.
FlammNew,
Nowhere has this been stated. The UFS group is made up of 14 people each with individual views. Some I'm sure will abide by any decision the commission makes, I for one would, while others would be disillusioned and may not go on with Cornish if KK were chosen. I know of one of us who has expressed this opinion - one - out of 14. This is an individual choice that has nothing to do with what the group decision is. We see our proposed orthography as a model of what a compromise orthography could look like and have submitted this to the commission - all within the process. Your impression that UFS had in some way publicly stated that it wouldn't abide by the outcome is wrong. We've never said this.
Untrue, groups submissions were allowed later, furthermore KS was not a finished orthography, and it isn't at this time. we're making changes all the time owing to the input of those who are willing to discuss matters with us. Other groups won't even make their submissions public at all, so we could have kept KS to ourselves and submit it without showing it to anyone - but actually wanted people to comment. The date had far more to do with the fact that we simply weren't ready yet. Morvran has claimed that "any of us fluent speakers" could come up with a new orthography in an evening - an idea - yes, but actually putting something together like or proposal, especially when you're a group of 14 people, isn't exactly a rapid process. We wanted to send off the first draft before the deadline, and many of us were working, pretty much round the clock the days and nights before the first public draft was presented. There was no deceitful intent behind the date of publishing - just lack of time.
So not agreeing that KK ought to be SWF is "sidestepping the agreed process"? Is that what you mean by your ubiquitous claim? If we all agreed on KK, there wouldn't be much of a debate, but we don't. That doesn't mean we can't talk and come up with alternatives, which is what we tried, and will continue to try. Most of the dislike of KS has to do with disliking the people that were involved in putting it together. As far as I can make out, it is hardly about the orthography itself. The same was the case with UCR.
I don't care how long it takes. I'd rather have a sound orthography by December than an overhasty decision in September. If an orthography is introduced too quickly without hearing everybody out you get a fragmentation such as it happened when KK was introduced. It was simply too quick. Many people felt left out. Just as an example the recent moderate reform of German spelling went on for 20 years, and still there is much disagreement about it's implementation, and the changes were few, by comparison even changing from UC to UCR would seem radical by comparison, not to mention the change from UC to KK!
No, we have never attacked Modern Cornish. In fact we had quite a few Modern Cornish supporters in our group working towards a compromise. Unlike others, we very much respect Modern Cornish and the inclusion of the Late Cornish material in the corpus the Revived language is based on.
KS is not cut an paste, it is work in progress. It's a proposal of what a compromise could look like and not written in stone. I believe it's a sound basis to work with.
N.B. For future reference, I use 'modern' in the usual sense of 'current, of our time', rather than the eccentric one of 'pertaining to, or affecting, the linguistic habits of the 18th century'.
Michael Everson will not accept KK, nor, I think you will agree, will NJW. Craig W. will not either, and neither would the Chubbs unless hell froze over. I can't see the users of RLC accepting Kemmyn either. That doesn't leave many out of the 14 undecided.
But individuals couldn't respond to KS.
They don't have to, so that means nothing.
*sigh* Yet another bout of word-twisting. I said nothing about KK.
Frankly what the Cornish language could do with is a benevolent dictator to bang heads together and make executive decisions to drive the language forward and end all this academic wrangling in the interests of the general users of Cornish. The future of Cornish as a living language lies with the general public, not the academics, who should, very soon post-SWF, become observers of 21st Century Cornish not proscribers. I wouldn't advocate any of our current 'leaders' for the post, mind...
We already have sound orthographies. Further delay does nothing to secure the future of the language. In any case, I believe that there is a loss of funding if there isn't a decision by September and rightly so.
If you think that the decision on a SWF is not going to cause fragmentation then I'm afraid you're deluding yourself. People on all sides have said they won't accept the SWF if it doesn't go their way, so there are going to be fragments flying in all directions when the decision comes out!
There are currently 3-4 larger orthographies is use in "Modern" Cornish (or Neo-Cornish, or Revived Cornish) and one of these groups calls their variety "Modern Cornish" and it is not the variety that you mean. So you are twisting the fact of written "Modern Cornish" by misusing established terminology. Calling KK "Modern Cornish" is distorting the facts.
So why get your knickers in a twist. In that regard it was only a courtesy that we made KS available for public criticism at the time we did. You could say, 'thanks for showing us your proposal - I don't like it, I respect the hard work, but no thanks.'
Well that says a lot about your sense of democracy...
Academics are not 'proscribers'. actually most of the academics involved will take a descriptive approach. They just differ in what they are describing and then codifying.
Not me, it's Mr Evertype who's been droning on about that in almost every post he's put on C24 since KS was launched. I've just been pointing out to him (and now you) that they don't have to.
It strikes me that not a single one of your reasons has anything to do with orthography (or for that matter: the practical aspects of language learning). That is what upsets me most about this whole discussion. It’s all about personality clashes and ”us vs. them”. (Or as Bardh alluded: different ”philosophies”.) Are you people not capable of discussing the various pros and cons of the various proposals without attacking each other?!?
Wouldn’t it be much better if the discussion actually was like:
”This I like about KK, this I don’t like about KK; this I like about KS, this I don’t like about KS…” Or: ”In practical terms, XX would YY…”
Oh god YES if only that was the case SS. When ever I think of the different language factions at the moment it usually feels like I'm watching obsessive English people arguing over their hobby rather than a nation trying to promote its tongue.
You know like when ever you see a story about a marrow growing competition that gets out of hand on an allotment and ends up with the police being involved and marrows being sabotaged, I get that kind of feeling.
At times like this I am happy to be just a political activist and not a language geek.
Considering that the 'leaders' of any current form will be the people that everyone would have to deal with should it be picked as SWF, their personalities are of importance to us all. Aren't you concerned *at all* that the main players behind KS will not agree to abide by the decision of the Commission? Everyone coming together behind a SWF is frankly more important than which form is selected.
Extra 'ingredient' in Cornish pie
A 21-year-old bites off more than he can chew when he discovers a whole snail is his Ginsters pasty.
Woman, 90, fulfils 'thong' wish
A 90-year-old has her fantasy fulfilled when she is served fish and chips by a waiter in a thong.
Man is murdered while walking dog
A murder inquiry is under way after the death of a man who was attacked while walking his dog.
Heating oil taken from home twice
A Cornish homeowner has hundreds of pounds worth of heating oil taken from his house in two separate thefts.
Rally called off over muddy field
One of the biggest steam rallies in the South West is called off after rain leaves the exhibition field too muddy.
Cinema on tour in Cornwall
Cinemagoers in Cornwall need no longer travel far to see great cinema.
Precious lives gets a wedding boost
Instead of the usual wedding gifts, a Lanner couple decided to ask for donations to charity.
Loads of fun in gardens
Gyllyngdune Gardens in Falmouth is piloting a host of activities and workshops over the summer.
Craig W. will not either, and neither would the Chubbs unless hell froze over. I can't see the users of RLC accepting Kemmyn either. That doesn't leave many out of the 14 undecided.
