I've been trying to advocate this since i joined the forum, Some people are too childish to talk sensibly on here about orthography pros and cons. Makes me sick.
I agree with Nosdan. It would be nice if we could keep the discussion about the positive features of each orthography. For me the following are the essential questions:
1. How many users will have to change to the chosen orthography?
2. How much material is already present in the chosen orthography?
3. How many proficient teachers will be immediately available to teach the chosen orthography?
4. How easy is it for those new to the language?
5. How inclusive is it of all the different pronunciations?
6. How close does it come to the theorized historical pronunciation of the different periods?
7. How much does it make Cornish orthography look uniquely Cornish.
Perhaps there are other question that could be added to the list. Any suggestions?
Oh we've been there, done that, over and over again, it's a waste of time, like arguing with religious fanatics. It seems that spelling reform is always very, very political unfortunately. Read the history of spelling in Norway, Sweden ...
Yes, having spent many years in Norway, I know all about the ”orthography wars” of that country. 4 million Norwegians still cannot agree on a single orthography to represent the language as it is actually spoken today. They cling on to outdated ideas about ”Norwegianness” and strive for a ”pure” language that never existed – on both sides.
4 million Norwegian-speakers, 2 orthographies, both official and both taught in the public school system.
400 Cornish-speakers…
Need I say more?
FWIW the Welsh spent most of the C19th argueing over spelling, and once they'd got their formal register sorted out, it wasn't many decades before they were falling out over how informal it was acceptable to be ... And Welsh spelling is often held up as an ideal model.
In Britany one side was accusing the other of being Nazis at one point, and didn't they get an 'official' compromise that nobody uses?
Maybe it would be better if we just accepted that nobody is going to support the SWF apart from officialdom and let everyone carry on using their current systems.
In Britanny, the situation up to the 1990s when Peurunvan became the de-facto standard because it was used in the Diwan/Dihun/Div Yezh immersion classes, was in some respects even more complicated than in Cornwall. At least people are not accusing each other of being Nazis here. Not yet, maybe.
Peurunvan was devised as a compromise between the four main dialects in the 1940s under German occupation. It is largely Leoneg-based but offers some extra rules for the representation of Gwenedeg, the most idiosyncratic dialect. Its supporters were accused of being Nazis for decades.
Skolveurieg was devised by Prof. Falc'hun in the 1950s and is actually two orthographies, one for the KLT dialects and one for Gwenedeg. It was promoted as kind of an official spelling by the French state for three decades but never caught on because 'promotion' in this case meant being used in a few minutes of Breton language TV broadcasts per week (later per day) and within the pitifully small amount of Breton taught in a few schools in accordance with the Loi Deixonne (1 hour/week, outside of normal school hours, voluntary). It is still used by the university of Brest and a number of writers. Its users are sometimes accused of complacency and subservience towards the French state.
In the 1970s, a third orthography called Etrerannyezhel appeared. It was meant to be an improvement on Peurunvan. Some quirks in the latter were removed (e.g. PU <piv> : ERY <piw> [piw]) and its main aim was inclusivity of all dialects. It did not catch on well and is mostly used by the socialist teachers' association Ar Falz and some people who prefer to write their own dialects and not standard Breton.
You are absolutely right. In fact the whole opposition to UCR and now KS has nothing to do with linguistics or orthography, but much more with a dislike of the persons involved.
Yes i agree with Dorkvyl, the whole UCR now KC clique hate the Kemmynites, as can be seen by the energy they spend trashing KK its publications and the Kesva rather than promoting the Cornish Language Revival.
I think from postings here on Cornwall24, that this is far from correct Flamm. I think that you will find that many People will support the SWF, and that only the diehards in all Camps will not. I also think that the Language Board will be beholden to support the SWF. If and when it is decided, I think that you will find many People will switch. It WILL be the Official Form wether People like it or not. Once that the SWF is being Taught and used, the People who will not use it will, and rightly so, be marginalised. MK are already commited to supporting it, as I believe are CCC and others. The diehards will hopefully be ostracised.
The worry is how many acolytes the die-hards will take with them? It's clear from this board that in Wales, Norway and Brittany that the uptake of any new system, be it officially-supported or no, is far from guaranteed, and I see no reason to see why Cornish will be any different. The ludicrous thing about the split is that we simply don't have enough speakers to support more than one form - YET.
You forget that, Welsh and Norwegian have bodys of exsisting speakers and writers all with an inherent knowledge of their particular system.
Cornish is different, it will not matter about the few hundred people who speak it know, It should be about the future generations! Once an SWF is realised there will be no choice, SWF or fade away in my eyes!
But Nosdan, it precisely because we *have* bodies of existing speakers who have an inherent knowledge of their particular systems and who don't want to give them up that we are in this mess! In that we are no different to any of those other countries. Total numbers don't matter here, it's human intransigence and selfishness that's the problem, and that's not going to go away just because a group of outsiders decide we should use Cornish in a particular way.
I see your point Flamm and I am not saying that what you write is in any way wrong. However I do believe that there is enough support for the SWF already. Also when it becomes accepted by say Local Government there will be a need for the SWF and it's users. I do really believe that this is the Future for the Language, and I agree with Nosdan in that future Speakers will vastly outnumber the diehards.
If all the Forms that now exist continue, I do not see that as a problem in any way. They will all be able to understand the SWF. If at some time in the future we can corrispond with Local Government in Cornish then that foem will be the SWF. If at sometime in the future we get Cornish on the School Curriculem, it will be the SWF. All the others will die out as the users pass away. So for the Language in the long term, it is not really that much of an issue. IMHO that is.
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