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Start ::  Cornwall24 Discussion ::  Cornish Language, Culture and History ::  Kernowak: A proposed Standard Written Form for the Cornish language
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Kernowak: A proposed Standard Written Form for the Cornish language

Bardh Posted: 17.06.2007, 07:44

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That's one view, but a bit of a grey area. Not one I'd rely on myself.
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marhak Posted: 17.06.2007, 11:24

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Mock ye not, Branvras. You haven't SEEN his legs!
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Bardh Posted: 17.06.2007, 21:51

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While there was no evidence that any work on BK was in fact in progress, Nynja was not neglecting his interest in Cornish in general. He was now no longer alone. The Laurel to his Hardy was one Michael Everson, a former pupil of his who, it seems, runs a small typesetting business in Co. Mayo. Although his competence in Cornish is not known, both master and disciple have in common an ability to sustain vitriolic and repetitious vehemence without flagging. They also tend to take instant offence at the expression of a dissenting view, displaying a delicate sensitivity to everything but other people's feelings. Were they left entirely to their own devices, they would be a subject for irritation and occasional amusement. They had, in fact, become figures of fun.

One of the platforms that they have been granted is 'Cornish Studies', the journal of the Institute of Cornish Studies. After the retirement of the first Director, the ICS seems to have disengaged from the Kesva. Its first new initiative was to endorse Dick Gendall's 'Modernist' enterprise, which seeks to recapture the 18th century. No explanation has been given by the ICS for this, for the decision to drop it, or for the decision to give a platform to Nynja's 'Authenticist' enterprise, which seeks to wipe out Modern Cornish and replace it with a lovingly-reconstructed replica of the language of the Tudor period. However, both the lexicographer Nynja and the typesetter Everson have taken the opportunity to denounce rival publications in 'Cornish Studies'.

Another platform has been Agan Tavas. Originally a forum for encouraging the use of the common spoken language, Agan Tavas was highjacked by a groupuscule hostile to the de facto Standard Written Form. It then purported to be for the preservation of the Nancean UC spelling. Subsequently it proclaimed itself the publishing house for Nynja's Mock-Tudor UCR spelling. Logically, it should have closed down when Nynja himself (but not, apparently, the 'Partnership') decided to junk Mock-Tudor. However, in practice it will still have a function as a flag of convenience for further attacks on the Standard Written Form and the mainstream Cornish-speaking community.

Meanwhile, copies of BK were circulating amongst the Cornish-speaking community. These excited a great deal of interest, and much discussion ensued. Readings of various passages were proferred and compared, and newly-discovered words and expressions began to spread into common usage. Since the EUP/NLW edition, to be typeset by Everson, was being constantly postponed for reasons never given, a consensus arose that an inexpensive provisional edition was needed for the general popular audience.
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morvran Posted: 18.06.2007, 00:59

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If Nynja was so keen on editing trad. Cornish, I wonder why he never tackled Tregear. This is obviously dear to his heart, most of the examples in Clappya Kernowak are from that work. Afaik it's never had a proper 'scholarly edition'. Had he done that he might perhaps had made a useful and lasting contribution to the language.
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marhak Posted: 18.06.2007, 08:39

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Dewgell! Agan Tavas hasn't been hijacked by anyone. Tim obviously hasn't read its constitution. Stick to what you know, Tim.
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morvran Posted: 18.06.2007, 21:20

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Well Tim and a few others I've spoken to recently were AT members before the "night of the long knives", and all confirm that AT was 'reformed' by a minority of members, success having been guaranteed by the simple expedient of 'forgetting' to invite anyone who might possibly object.

This is only an issue now because AT chose to bring it up in their submission. I'm sure there are people here who were involved at the time, could they please confirm/deny this story?
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Bardh Posted: 18.06.2007, 21:30

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The Kesva edition of BK was a serviceable, inexpensive tool for the general audience. It provides a transcription of the MS, the same transcribed into Modern Cornish, and a literal transcription into English. It also provides succinct general notes on the MS and its context, together with a select vocabulary.

Its popularity is demonstrated by the fact that it has sold out, and a second edition is projected. Copies have been bought in Cornwall, the other Celtic countries, England, France, and beyond. The wider audience has responded with comments and suggestion, which will inform further study of BK. Some people have taken the experience of reading BK to their hearts, and have begun to write in a new way.

As is prescribed, Kesva sent out legal deposit copies to all the relevant copyright libraries. Amongst these was the National Library of Wales. The NLW catalogue shows that BK was registered without incident.

It was the following year, just before the second Tremough farce, that things began to become extremely bizarre. Various venerable institutions acted out of character. Some began to contradict one another, others to contradict themselves.

A letter posted in Aberystwyth reached Ken George, making certain demands of the Kesva. According to well-informed sources, its contents were as much a shock to many people in Aberystwyth as to most people in Cornwall. Had the Kesva complied with these demands, it could well have had to cease its valuable work, with dire consequences for the Cornish language.
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FlammNew Posted: 18.06.2007, 21:33

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Morvran, according to the Kernoweak mailing list the deadline for submissions is this Friday so maybe some clarification could be sent to them? Assuming that, unlike before, they don't throw the offer of information back in your face.



dukkha-samudaya-nirodha-magga
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Evertype Posted: 18.06.2007, 23:29

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Regardless of your implied insult about us, what are you talking about?
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Evertype Posted: 18.06.2007, 23:39

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morvranIf Nynja was so keen on editing trad. Cornish, I wonder why he never tackled Tregear. This is obviously dear to his heart, most of the examples in Clappya Kernowak are from that work. Afaik it's never had a proper 'scholarly edition'. Had he done that he might perhaps had made a useful and lasting contribution to the language.

Keith,

How many times does it have to be said that it is rude of you to call Professor Williams names like "Nynja"? You are a member of the Cornish Language Board. We (RLC and UC/UCR supporters) do not mock the creator of KK by making fun of his name. We might do so. "Kenn Djordj" is easy to think up.

But we don't. We call him Ken. Or George. And we have asked that you offer Williams the same courtesy. But you are unable to do this. This has been an issue for two years and you still can't bring yourself to be a grown-up and quit using the nickname.

Shame on you. Again.

Regarding an edition of Tregear, Nicholas said that since he is no palaeographer he would not undertake an edition on his own but would be delighted to collaborate on one.

Regarding your childish attack on Williams ("he might perhaps had made a useful and lasting contribution to the language.") I will point out that he has written hundreds of pages in criticism of the bogus Cornish orthography you favour (and yes, that's my opinion); he has prepared an English-Cornish Dictionary with 25,000 headwords; he was first to translate the New Testament into Cornish, and he ACTUALLY DID IT using the original Greek texts. (The translations of Syed et al. can be shown to be based on one or another English original; evidently the editor's claim that they used the original Greek was simply a lie.) Williams has won prizes for his poetry in Cornish.

What have you, Keith, done which can be considered to be "a useful and lasting contribution to the language"?

Williams is worthy to stand together with Lhuyd and Tonkin and Jenner and Nance and Smith and Pool.
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FlammNew Posted: 19.06.2007, 07:15

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Evertypeit is rude of you to call Professor Williams names like "Nynja"


I tend to agree. It's also rude, not to say totally inaccurate, to call Kemmyn 'bogus'.

QuoteWilliams is worthy to stand together with Lhuyd and Tonkin and Jenner and Nance and Smith and Pool.


icon_eek I think there's a speck of dust on his right shoe that you missed.



dukkha-samudaya-nirodha-magga
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Branvras Posted: 19.06.2007, 09:11

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FlammNew
EvertypeWilliams is worthy to stand together with Lhuyd and Tonkin and Jenner and Nance and Smith and Pool.


icon_eek I think there's a speck of dust on his right shoe that you missed.


It makes you cringe, doesn't it? Then you think about the way Williams has conducted himself, and especially about what we all saw at Tremough, and it makes you angry to think Nance, Smith and Pool could be mentioned in the same breath as him. Then you just continue to cringe. I'll probably be cringing all day.
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Evertype Posted: 19.06.2007, 11:01

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At Tremogh Williams suggested that Cornish had had an orthographic tradition and he defended UCR. He didn't ever mention either KK or Ken George. He did point out that he would be happy for outside linguists to assess UCR.

I can't see what Williams said at Tremough that was particularly
objectionable. It looks rather as though the supporters of KK dislike him merely because ge exists and in the past has repeatedly suggested that KK is bogus.

And FlammNew, Williams and I may call KK bogus (because it changes Cornish according to what George wants it to be rather than according to what it does) but this is neither "rude" nor "totally inaccurate". The word "bogus" is of course imprecise, and inflammatory. But we have published lists, long lists, of the errors in KK, and have not been answered.

Names like "Nynja" and "Kenn Djordj" are of course rude, and ad hominem. We agree there.
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Evertype Posted: 19.06.2007, 11:03

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FlammNew
EvertypeWilliams is worthy to stand together with Lhuyd and Tonkin and Jenner and Nance and Smith and Pool.


icon_eek I think there's a speck of dust on his right shoe that you missed.


Har har har. What have you, FlammNew, done which can be considered to be "a useful and lasting contribution to the language"? Where is your dictionary, or grammar, or article about the history of the language?
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FlammNew Posted: 19.06.2007, 11:05

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It was suggested on the almost-silent Kernowak forum that perhaps 50% of words are spelled the same in Kemmyn and Kernowak. Presumably that makes Kernowak at least 50% bogus itself?

I take issue with the fact that you call them "errors" in KK. There may be points that you disagree with, but who's to say that you are correct? The Cornish record is open to interpretation and not everyone will agree, but without a time machine it's now impossible to say with 100% certainty which interpretation is correct.



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