The only things that have been "demolished", Goky, are those things that deserve to be. Not all 21st century Cornish has been so criticised (but then there's more to life than KK, or haven't you noticed?).
It's also a choice which the vast majority of Cornish users at the time agreed with and went along with. You cannot simply attack Ken for the decision, his work was analysed and accepted by all but one of the Kesva members of the day. You cannot attack Ken's work in this way without by implication attacking the judgement and integrity of the members of the Kesva and the wider language community of the time who accepted his proposals. The fact that a minority of Cornish users disagree doesn't mean we have to change. Turning your arguments around, one could say that because Williams' work has failed to convince all Cornish users to change to use it, it has been a failure, so we should abandon it. Far more people have changed to (and continue to use) Kemmyn, than have changed to (or use) UCR or KS, so which is the bigger failure?
Since you have taken such pains to be polite to me today, FlammNew, may I ask why I should answer your question?
UdnFormScrefys decided to withhold comment on KD because it was aimed at KK users. Bailey has said nothing about it. Dunbar has said nothing about it. George has said nothing about it. Even Saunders has said nothing about it, astonishing in itself. None of the Kesva representatives has said anything about it.
It is not clear to me that anything UdnFormScrefys would say about it at this juncture on this forum would serve much purpose. Do you disagree with this assessment?
I note that you have not asked any of the Kesva representatives their opinion of KD. Why is that?
The greatest failure of KK was in splitting the Revival. If KK were so easy, why are there not thousands of Cornish speakers? I don't accept your use of "vast majority" now any more than I have in the past (and "vast" is meaningless when the number of users is less than 500). I don't accept your view that KK was adopted "democratically" because my colleagues tell very different stories, quite explicitly, and they were there.
In what way am I attacking George's work? You say "this way"? Flaws have been pointed out. Examples given. Hundreds of examples in the article on Gerlyver Kernewek Kemmyn show that George's dictionary does not accurately cite the number of examples of words in the corpus. Yet his work is "modern and scholarly".
UCR was introduced 12 years ago. Its influence has not been inconsequential, though you may like to pretend that it has. UCR, it can be said, was the first attempt at a compromise orthography. And it did help to bring UC and RLC users together.
This assertion cannot go unchallenged. For "is an error" read "is in disagreement with N.Williams' observations". Although bywnans is not attested as such, it is not at odds with the attested <eu>, <ew> and <ev>. Any of these could mean /IU/ as well as /EU/.
If UCR were so easy, why are there not thousands of UCR users? Why are there far fewer users of UCR than Kemmyn? Could it be that its effect on the language community has been far more 'inconsequential' than that of Kemmyn? Take those as rhetorical if you like, I'm sure you won't want to tell us why UCR has singularly failed to sweep through the language movement and convert everybody.
Frankly I reckon that whatever form of Cornish becomes the SWF, we won't see a massive increase in numbers at evening classes, but that's more to do with people in the modern world considering the language an irrelevance - not in itself perhaps, but in their lives - and that it's going to take a lot of time and effort to increase numbers whichever way the decision goes. Picking KS or UCR or Kemmyn or KD is not, in itself, going to cause a huge jump in the numbers of Kernewegoryon.
Palores, you've misunderstood. Disagreeing with NJW is an error. You'll never understand UCR or KS unless you stop questioning - that's the way of religions.
Again people are trying to throw the biggest rock! so climbing carefully out of the trench i ask... Is it not a little late to be argueing about the SWF as the date is rapidly aproaching... and unless someone is very good at rewriting orthographies i believe all suggesttions are in, correct me if im wrong!
It must be time to put down the pitchforks and concentrate on excepting whatever form is decided apon.
Whatever happens, its not going to be the end of the world! Books can be rewritten (very quickly should its source files be on computer!) and teaching material adapted!
Most of the responsibility lies on the Teachers - whatever the outcome a successful transition will rely on teachers adapting quickly and accurately to the "the form". There should be support put in place for them, and as much help and resources as possible!
Perhaps teacher training weekend!
This is the real beginning in the languages revival - up until now weve been keeping it alive its time to take it of the ventilator!
And remember, the futures looking bright - the futures looking Cornish!
Nosdan, you are being overly optimistic. How long do you seriously think it would take for someone to become adept in a totally new spelling system to the point where they can transcribe a book or hold a class without consulting a dictionary? A weekend's training?
If we go with one of the existing systems at least some teachers will be able to get right on with supporting the SWF. If we go with a fifth form it's going to put the promotion of the SWF back months if not years while teachers and transcribers become proficient in the new form.
IIRC the Kesva has been running teacher training days for a couple of years now.
Fair enough, Flamm, but on the basis of your argument (including the fictitious "vast majority" that seems to be the only argument being touted by several KK diehards), it seems that the ONLY solution is to go all out for a compromise form in which no factions are sidelined or excluded.
The introduction of KK did not put the development of Cornish back by months/years, so why should a compromise fifth form have such an effect? Orthographical changes will be quickly and easily adapted to, as they were then. I think, Flamm, that you're seeing obstacles where there really aren't any, as long as a collective effort is put in once the decision is made. If the decision is to adopt a compromise form (let's not call it a fifth form - all are variations on a single theme), then - perhaps - we can all stop arguing for the first time in 20 years. Isn't that worth looking forward to?
One curious thing was that, scarcely had Ken George opened the letter, and even before Kesva had discussed it, and even before the story had broken in the media, Michael Everson was alleging on an Authenticist-controlled discussion list that the demands in the letter had already been complied with.
He was over-optimistic. BK was not suppressed, and will not be.
The letter was signed by an individual who is not, as far as can be seen, noted for his contributions to either scholarly work or librarianship. He was also singularly ill-informed on certain crucial matters of law and fact.
Firstly, he was under the impression that the NLW had some kind of intellectual property in the MS of BK. Secondly, he believed that the publication of BK in Kesva's popular edition would be commercially damaging to the sales of the NLW/EUP edition. On these grounds, he demanded that Kesva withdraw BK from sale, and account for all transactions on the publication.
As we have already seen, the first demand has no foundation. The second would seem to be in restraint of trade,and therefore unlawful. This was the view of Kesva, and was confirmed by their legal advisers. They sent a robust reply to the functionary at the NLW.
Meanwhile, the story had broken in the Welsh media, both print and electronic. Public reaction ranged from shock to anger. The matter came to the attention of the National Assembly.
Media enquiries revealed confusion amongst the NLW/EUP camp. It is difficult to see how some of their statements can be reconciled. Some elucidation is required.
Well said, FlammNew, I agree with pretty well all you have said except that I do happen to believe that KK supporters represent 80%+.
Another thing that really galls me is that I was at the meeting in 1987 and was also one of the original members of Agan Tavas. I know for a fact that the body alienated anybody supporting the change to KK. Instead of making the spoken language paramount and promoting it, as desired by founder Rod Lyon, it became a body of discontented trouble makers! I feel particularly cross at the misrepresentation of the facts surrounding the 1987 meeting too. Such dishonesty!
<An Wiasva> (all the -va nouns are feminine and thus lenite after the definite article).
You could also write:
KS <Gwiasva Goky brâs.>
KK <Gwiasva Goky bras.>
UC/R <Gwyasva Goky bras.>
RLC <Gweasva Goky broaz.> (Not sure if RLC uses <gweasva>)
[/quote]
What is your point Herr Dorkvyl,!,
I can see the Kesva(Cesva) under the KS lot,
Herr Morvyl will be the language Tsar, putting Dunce caps on those who do not have the 'right " command of the language, Nynja will he El Presidente, what a humourless bunch they will be.
Blog Goky
pyth yw 'Agan Tavas"?, Agan Tavas yw Eddie Climo.
Agan Taves Worldwide, hunky Cornish speakers, klickeugh below Agan Taves Nowyth
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