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Start ::  Cornwall24 Discussion ::  Cornish Language, Culture and History ::  Kernowak: A proposed Standard Written Form for the Cornish language
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Kernowak: A proposed Standard Written Form for the Cornish language

Nosdan Posted: 19.06.2007, 22:24

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QuoteNosdan, you are being overly optimistic. How long do you seriously think it would take for someone to become adept in a totally new spelling system to the point where they can transcribe a book or hold a class without consulting a dictionary? A weekend's training?


I dont think im being optimistic at all... its not like we're going to have to learn a new language again!

For arguements sake - say that the SWF is decided as KD (for KK orthography) Your 80%+ teachers are going to have to learn (read adapt) very little... Seeing as 99% of us are all second language learners our intelligence is not questionable, we could adapt very quickly.

You could even make a little pocket reference card with all the differences to help you!

How hard is it to remember to put Wh instead of hw? or single n instead of nn for certain vowel stress'? That case would not be difficult! (besides your not thinking of the future generation again!)


If (kemmynite) worst case KS was choosen as SWF, things get a little harder but again, its not the end of the world! The language is the same, speak it and it all spells its self out anyway! There are soooooo few differences in actual spelling its ludirus we should have wasted so much time on it as we have! KK / UC / UCR / KS / KD it makes no odds! Surely its the Song in pub or friendly greeting that matters not the way some scholer beavering away in his tower?

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(as maazed as a curlew)
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marhak Posted: 19.06.2007, 22:41

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Tim, those accusations could be actionable without the proof and I don't see any.
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FlammNew Posted: 19.06.2007, 22:58

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NosdanIf (kemmynite) worst case KS was choosen as SWF, things get a little harder but again, its not the end of the world! The language is the same, speak it and it all spells its self out anyway!


I pronounce unn as English "oon". How does that 'spell out' KS *udn? KK has no accents, KS does on some days and not on others, some words pronounced the same have different accents (or none). Changing to KS will not be a walk in the park.



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Nosdan Posted: 19.06.2007, 23:08

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i think you'll find pre-occlussion is voluntary in both forms KK and KS, just KS makes it visible which words can pre-occlude, if you want it too.

Mar vedhow avel gelvinek
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FlammNew Posted: 19.06.2007, 23:17

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Nosdani think you'll find pre-occlussion is voluntary in .... KK.


What evidence do you base that on?



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morvran Posted: 20.06.2007, 00:20

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FlammNewI pronounce unn as English "oon".


Looks like we need a Flammnewek orthography then icon_razz

Seriously, whatever lead you to pronounce it like that ([u:n] ? [Vn] ???). This is not meant as personal criticism, I'm just interested in how these traditions of mispronunciation arise.
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morvran Posted: 20.06.2007, 00:45

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marhakTim, those accusations could be actionable without the proof and I don't see any.


Lets just say we're keeping our powder dry shall we icon_evil

Meanwhile ponder :

*** Who told Everson about the threat to the Kesva?

*** Why was ME so keen to make the threat public when hardly anyone in Cornwall knew? (The letter was sent to Ken's personal address and arrived while he was away from home. Michael had no assurance the letter had even been received)

*** Who/what gave him the confidence to believe the threat would be successful?

*** How did it come to pass that a respected and august institution like the NLW was somehow persuaded to bully a small voluntary body (the Kesva) thus bringing public shame and ridicule upon itself?

*** How did the NLW come to threaten to enforce legal rights which it did not have? Clearly this was not run past their legal department.

*** Were all the correct procedures followed? If not, why not?

*** Has there been an internal inquiry? Has the person responsible been identified? If not, why not?

*** Is there any reason to believe outside influence was brought to bear on the Library or on its staff?

*** What steps have been taken to prevent anything like this happening again?

This is just not going to go away. These questions need to be asked and asked again until answers emerge.

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morvyl Posted: 20.06.2007, 02:16

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goky
What is your point Herr Dorkvyl,!,

I can see the Kesva(Cesva) under the KS lot,
Herr Morvyl will be the language Tsar, putting Dunce caps on those who do not have the 'right " command of the language, Nynja will he El Presidente, what a humourless bunch they will be.


Sorry if you don't want to accept my help. This is not just according to Williams, but all varieties of Cornish soften the initial letter of a feminine noun after the definite article, so <an wiasva> (however you spell it) is correct while **an gwiasva is not.
I have no desire to be the language Tsar, but I am willing to pass on my experience as a learner to others who wish to learn.
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morvyl Posted: 20.06.2007, 02:20

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morvran
FlammNewI pronounce unn as English "oon".


Looks like we need a Flammnewek orthography then icon_razz

Seriously, whatever lead you to pronounce it like that ([u:n] ? [Vn] ???). This is not meant as personal criticism, I'm just interested in how these traditions of mispronunciation arise.


Yes I'd be interested in that, too. As far as I can make out KK recommends a pronunciation that comes close to French <un>, but with a longer n-sound.
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Bardh Posted: 20.06.2007, 07:55

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No, Trinity, they wouldn't. And they aren't.

Thank you and your associates for your continued attention. Please stay tuned.

P.S. PLEASE don't name identifiable individuals as suitable targets. You could get yourself and others into a LOT of trouble.
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marhak Posted: 20.06.2007, 08:09

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What concerns me is why the question of the CLB's Bewnans Ke is being resurrected. We've been through all this already and the accusations (which started with a Press release published in the WMN, which appeared to implicate other language movements) have been refuted. It was purely a matter between the CLB and the NLW. Moreover, it is all done and dusted. The CLB got a mild rap over the knuckles, its publication went ahead and no one suffered even mild contusions. The episode is over. Why drag it all up again? I fail to see the point of it.
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Nosdan Posted: 20.06.2007, 08:34

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Quotei think you'll find pre-occlussion is voluntary in .... KK.

What evidence do you base that on?


1. People using it!

2. Suggestions on here and other forums about the "ease" of using KK with pre-occlussion.

3. Wella browns, a grammer of modern cornish. Page 17 section 27. "An opposite but not regular tendancy is found in the double nasal groups -mm- and -nn- when these follow a stressed vowel. The first element is denasalised by some speakers to give -bm- or -dm-"


To tell the the truth ive always pronounced unn - een? am i wrong?

Mar vedhow avel gelvinek
(as maazed as a curlew)
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FlammNew Posted: 20.06.2007, 09:10

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Hmmm...odd. I've always heard Kemmyn users say "oon"* for unn and "gool" for gul. "een" for unn, "geel" for gul etc has always been a Unified pronunciation in my experience.

And maybe I just haven't rubbed shoulders with Kemmyn denasalisers. icon_smile Wella's description is hardly a ringing endorsement for using it!

* - well, "oon" is as near as I can make it using English equivalents, it's not exactly that but it's certainly not "een". I don't know the IPA and I'm not going to learn it. icon_razz





edited by: FlammNew, Jun 20, 2007 - 10:34 AM



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marhak Posted: 20.06.2007, 11:05

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At a teaching course a couple of years ago, I was horrified to see a short film showing a KK user teaching kids to pronounce numbers with Anglicised vowel sounds as: "saith, eth, naw, deg", rather than the traditional Cornish:
"z-eye-th, aith, naou, daig".
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marhak Posted: 20.06.2007, 11:09

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As you insist on perpetuating the BK argument, Keith, perhaps we should have an Inquiry into the KK interference with, and sabotage of, Penwith Council's bilingual road sign scheme 10 years ago. I know exactly who was involved.
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