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Start ::  Cornwall24 Discussion ::  Cornish Language, Culture and History ::  Kernowak: A proposed Standard Written Form for the Cornish language
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Kernowak: A proposed Standard Written Form for the Cornish language

Branvras Posted: 16.05.2007, 14:27

Branvras

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marhak
Prof. Williams is also not the world's best diplomat but his scholarship and ability cannot be faulted...

What a daft and, frankly, sycophantic claim to make!
marhak
That's a long way from "we have a perfect system" that we hear from the KK leadership.

I'll ask again. Could you please NAME the KK leadership, marhak? The ones that are not very nice to know? And the ones that keep saying to you "we have a perfect system"? Only, I've never heard ANYONE say "we have a perfect system". What circles do you move in? Perhaps you're hearing voices?
marhak
No matter what Sandercock's track record may be (and it is impressive), many of those involved with KS have equally impressive records.

MANY? Who? Could you tell us something of the track records of these MANY people, so we can judge for ourselves? We're looking for something like "30 years of activities (listing such activities) carried out daily or weekly in support of the Cornish language". That sort of thing.
marhak
...rather as the CLB has, for years, deliberately suppressed RLC and UCR by refusing to hold exams in those forms of the language.

Well, in the time it took marhak to write that latest demolition of all things KK, he could have written another UCR exam. Why is he suppressing UCR by refusing to take any action? Why does he think everything is someone else's responsibility?
Things are certainly going to be different round here once George's stranglehold over the revival is released and the power base shifts to Kernowak. The revival should take off like never before - and everyone will be safe in the knowledge that is is someone else's responsibility to make it happen. Good luck 'someone else' - Gwydn da ves!
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marhak Posted: 16.05.2007, 17:15

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Your response is not only predictably insulting but childish in the extreme. Which brings me reluctantly to ask: at what age do you expect to reach puberty?
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marhak Posted: 16.05.2007, 18:34

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Sorry about that last outburst, folks, but this man's responses can really make one's ass weary. So, to address the points raised:

Were those who appointed Williams to Professor in Celtic Linguistics at University Colege, Dublin sycophantic? Did they consider the standard of this work to be "daft"? Of course, you're not sycophantic, pard, are you?

Track records: 21 names appear in the preamble to the KS document. Many of those names have long and impressive track records in their fields, these being known to most of us - well, all except Branvras, it seems.

Which of the K|K leadership are not nice to know? Those who post repeatedly insulting messages on this and other fora. Those who insult, belittle and bully everyone who does not share their point of view and, worse, have the sheer temerity to say so. Those who deliberately interfere with and sabotage projects being carried out by other groups. Those who steadfastly refuse to discuss any compromise in the linguistic question.

Sandercock - to my knowledge, I have never met the man. His own track record does not suggest any reason why I should dislike him, except for his decision to refuse the UFS group the right of reply. That was not only wrong but doesn't do much to support KK's claim to be "democratic".

Finally, pard, you have no idea what responsibilities I may or may not have exercised but others are always consulted first when I do. Oh, and I do note that you refer to me as "he". I suppose you could be 50% right.

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fwltur Posted: 16.05.2007, 19:00



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marhakft"? Of course, you're not sycophantic, pard, are you?

Track records: 21 names appear in the preamble to the KS document. Many of those names have long and impressive track records in their fields, these being known to most of us - well, all except Branvras, it seems.


icon_smile
I see that the number of names in the preamble has dropped from 22 to 21.
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Evertype Posted: 16.05.2007, 19:17

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Yes, Mr Fwltur. American KK-user Thomas Leigh, who contributed to drafting the KS proposal and put his name to Revision 11 released on 26 March, requested that his name be removed. He stated the reason for this: that he was getting obsessed with trying to communicate with "both sides" in the debate, between those of us supporting KS and those supporting KK, and he found that it was interfering with his family life at home. When he asked for his name to be removed from the KS draft, he made it clear that he was not only withdrawing his support for KS, but also from KK. He was withdrawing entirely from the conflict, from both sides.

Thomas is an intelligent and gentle person and I have been glad to get to know him. His withdrawal from the Orthography Wars is understandable. His absence from the KS supporter list does not, however, imply that he changed his mind about its linguistic excellence.
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fwltur Posted: 16.05.2007, 21:18



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Mr. Everson,

Perhaps this explains why many people don't want to sign up to the Kernowak discussion group. With all the vitriol I can see why most people want to remain anonymous. I know I don't want to get caught up in the petty squabbles and have my name smeared all over the internet. Is he the only KK supporter you had that left the group? Do you still have any KK users who are attempting to compromise with you?
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Branvras Posted: 16.05.2007, 21:19

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marhak Oh, and I do note that you refer to me as "he". I suppose you could be 50% right.

Sorry! If you're familiar with the Cornish language you'll know that it is at least reasonable to assume that 'marhak' is a 'he' because otherwise you could certainly expect the name to be 'marhoges'.

I think if you called yourself 'horsewoman' or 'actress' or 'bride' in English people might (rashly) assume you were a 'she'. It's the same principle, but it's a stronger, more prevalent, principle in Cornish than it is in English.

It certainly caught me out, didn't it?!

And apologies for hitting so many raw nerves in just one post.
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Bardh Posted: 16.05.2007, 21:28

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Thirty or more years ago, the only magazine going was 'An Lef Kernewek'. This was a treasure, and I still have many copies. However, the Cornish was a bit deep for a lot of people, and the general focus was a bit antiquarian for contemporary tastes. Many Cornish-speakers felt we needed a magazine in simpler Cornish, with a wider spread in subject-matter and genre.

Quite a few of us talked about starting another magazine. A man who didn't say all that much was Graham Sandercock. He just when and did it. Before long, he'd rebuilt half his houise round the editorial office and printshop. And 'An Gannas' came out, month after month, offering a platform to everybody of interest or importance in the Cornish-speaking community. Most of them have availed themselves of the offer. 'An Gannas' has been read by more Cornish-speakers than any other set of texts in history. It's developed new genres, extended the vocabulary and stylistic range of the language, and helped hundreds and hundreds of people to get to grips with Modern Cornish. It's no disparagement to its contributors to say that Graham, if anybody, was the man linking the age of Talek with our time, just as Talek linked the age of Jenner and Nance with that exciting time of the Seventies. Graham has been, and continues to be, 'a necessary figure', as a critic once said of a great Welsh writer.

For most people in modern times, Modern Cornish is going to be the focus of their interest in the language. In practical terms, Modern Cornish is going to be most people's gateway to the treasures of the past. And Modern Cornish, for most ordinary people, is synonymous with 'An Gannas'. That is why a corpus of the language of 'An Gannas' would be such a treasure for us all. It would give us a picture of how the language has grown since the Seventies, acquiring new depth and colour. We should have a valuable pedagogical tool, in terms of such vital information as word frequency and sentence structure, and the data would also be of considerable theoretical interest for linguists. Graham himself is far too busy to create such a corpus himself, since in addition to all his work for the language he not only manages to hold down a day job but excels at it as well. Who has the expertise and resources to carry out his task? As well as paying tribute to Graham, they would be benefiting future generations of Cornish-speakers, and acquiring much honour and renown themselves.
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Evertype Posted: 16.05.2007, 22:18

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fwlturPerhaps this explains why many people don't want to sign up to the Kernowak discussion group. With all the vitriol I can see why most people want to remain anonymous. I know I don't want to get caught up in the petty squabbles and have my name smeared all over the internet.
Mr Fwitur,

I can't speak to what "many people" choose to do. But I should correct what seems to be a mistaken notion. Signing up to the discussion list at Kernowak.com does require that people give their names. These names are not published anywhere and only the list administrator sees them unless people actually send a post to the list. The only reason this is done (as I have said before) is because we feel that public debate should be engaged in by people who are willing to own up to what they say.

Signing up to the Kernowak discussion list only signs you up to the discussion list. If you like KS or its principles, you can also sign up to be a named supporter in the document which will be put forward to the Commission in due course. if you don't, your name will certainly not appear there.

QuoteIs he the only KK supporter you had that left the group?
Only one of the 22 signatories has left the group, and he did that for his two-year-old, not against the linguistic excellence of Kernowak Standard.

QuoteDo you still have any KK users who are attempting to compromise with you?
A number of people who use or have used KK have requested that their names be added to the draft proposal as supporters. No member of the Cornish Language Board (which controls the KK orthography) has chosen to discuss KS with us, or has chosen to discuss making changes to KK which could address our requirements.
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marhak Posted: 16.05.2007, 22:44

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Branvras - I didn't say that I wasn't a he, either. In these days of supposed sexual equality, we mustn't piss off the "feminist" faction - that's why there are no longer any actresses, only actors. No Chairmen or Chairwomen, just Chair (people who like being sat on?). Nah, Marhak will do just fine (and I have been - and still am - a regular and almost fanatical equestrian who gives vocal aids to the horse in Cornish. Really.)
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marhak Posted: 16.05.2007, 22:49

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Tim, I have no problem with Graham. I am well aware of his excellent track record and agree that he be given the plaudits he deserves. My sole criticism is the fact that he has, apparently, refused a non-KK group with a right of reply. I think he has been mistaken in doing so and I hope that he will reconsider and publish the response from the UFS group (which was, by the way, written in KK). If I was in his position I would certainly have afforded the right of reply as long as that reply was civil (and it was - you can now read it for yourself).
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morvran Posted: 17.05.2007, 00:52

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As I understand it, the UFS rant, sorry letter, missed the deadline for the May edition. Why should they have special treatment? Also it might go in their favour if they were prepared to sign their contribution. Given Everson's problem with anonymous postings, I wonder why he at least wasn't willing to put his name to this document?
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marhak Posted: 17.05.2007, 09:09

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UFS isn't anonymous. The letter was from the entire group, whose individual names appear in the KS document.
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Bardh Posted: 20.05.2007, 00:39

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You're right, FlammNew. This argument is a complete waste of time, energy, and resources. Nobody wanted it apart from the usual suspects. The majority kept their heads down for a long time, ignored the stream of vitriol, and just got on with the work. But that's beginning to change now. People are beginning to get angry.

Interesting, though, about this 'order', allegedly from the Partnership, that we're to stop replying to attacks in the Press. WHo else has had one? The timing's interesting, isn't it?
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FlammNew Posted: 20.05.2007, 23:50

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I hadn't heard of this "order", Bardh...interesting...



dukkha-samudaya-nirodha-magga
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