My a dhegemmeras gorthyp pur sogh ha digommyttyes orth an govynn ma dhiworth Evertype rag neb skila ha'n govynn pur wyrgh dres eghenn. Nyns esen vy owth assaya bos konnyk. My a vynna godhvos mar pe hengovek, an maner ma a worra poeslev war an diwettha syllabenn, po amyttyans dhe Gernewek dasserghys. Heb mar, ny yll bos 'diacritics' hengovek omma, mes nyns esen vy ow leverel hemma. Ny vynnav ri dihares rag gul devnydh a Gernewek y'n neusenn ma po ken le vydh!
I received a very blunt non-committal answer to this question from Evertype for some reason when it was a perfectly innocent question. I wasn't trying to be clever. I wanted to know if it were traditional, this way of putting stress on the last syllable or a concession to revived Cornish. Of course, diacritics can't be traditional here, but I wasn't saying this. I will not apologise for using Cornish in this thread or anywhere else!
Yn gwiryonedh geryow a'n par-ma a goedh yn-dann an rewl usyys, saw an syllabenn dhiwettha yw keweskyans hag a syns ynni an syllabenn boeslevys (an dhiwettha-marnas-onan) keffrys ha'n dhiwettha oll, an dhiw lemmyn teudhys warbarth yn-tien. Y'n kas arbennik-ma, an hanow-gwann lowen re beu ystynnys gans an furvyllik ('formative') -ha- ow kul ben verb spedyadow ('causative verb'). Yn yeth plen, lowen + ha- a re verb ha 'bos lowen' po 'gul lowen' hy styr. Ena lowen-ha + av >> lowen-'ha-av, h.y. lowen'hav; lowen-ha + e >> lowen-ha-e >> lowen'he etc. (Y hwelir an keth tra yn Kembrek, mwyn'hau etc.)
An kas arall 'rewlek' y hevir yn geryow kepar ha 'kenedhel ~ ke'nedhlow. Dhe gynsa *'kenedhl o an ger-ma ha'n e diwettha a devas a-ji y'n bagas dhl rag esya leveryans. Kynth yw bogalenn leun yn Kernewek (hag a ry syllabenn y'gan bardhonieth -- ny hwer hemma nag yn Kembrek nag yn Bretonek) stag yw an poeslev kepar dell yw an ger hwath *kenedhl.
edited by: morvran, Jul 19, 2007 - 12:21 AM
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Not so, actually. Think about the way stress is marked in, for instance the Oxford English Dictionaries (and others). They use (I'm not sure of the technical typographical name of the glyph) a straight non-curly single quote mark before the stressed syllable. Admittedly, the OED uses this in their IPA pronunciation for words, but I've seen it done with the headwords in other dicitonaries.
In Cornish, this stress mark would give us something like this (assuming I've got the stresses correct!):
margh -- 'marghak -- mar'ghogyon
'selsyk -- sel'sygen -- selsyg'ennow
So there's no need to stack diacritics, as you concluded. This would work fine in dictionaries, grammar books and other didactic or learners' materials. As in English, however, it might not be acceptable in regular printing for more fluent readers.
I know what you were asking My question didn't have anything to do with why there is anomalous stress in Cornish (interesting as that topic may be). It was about whether people thought it was necessary to mark it in orthography.
Meur ras dhis, Morvras, a'th worthyp pur heweres. Ny vynnav govynn travyth orth neb den na vynn gorthybi drefenn bos an govynn mes a'y boynt. Mar mynn ev orth tus i dhe ri aga breus yn kever 'diacritics', my a garsa leverel an tybyans dhe vos tybyans euthek dell woer pupden oll na vynn bos Kernewek gwrys moy gomplek es dell eus edhomm anodho. My a lever 'lowenhe' yn neb kas, ewn po kamm. Rag omdreyla y'n tremynn ma, res yw den dhe dhiskwedhes dhymm ow bos kamm herwydh rewlys an taves. Nevra ny wrug vy klywes orth an den na ow kewsel Kernewek na hwath. Marthys da yw y sowsnek, dhymmo vy, dhe'n liha - res yw dhymm avowa henna. Martesen Marhak a wra ow gweres vy ynwedh. Ev a vynn tus dhe wellhe aga Hernewek war an wiasva ma par dell vynnav vy.
Sur ov vy bos "lowenhe" ewn, well, mar sur dell yllir a-dro dhe Gernewek hengovek. Merkyys yndella y feu gans Nance (herwydh y gis) keffrys hag yn GLKK etc. Mars osta kamm y'n poynt-ma, ha'th Hernewek marthus da dhy'm brys-vy, henn yw prov martesen a hwans poesleva moy war boeslev a-barth dallethoryon, awos pur gales yw dastyski awosa. Dhe wir, nyns ov vy sertan pupprys yn kever geryow avel "amari" etc, le nag eus rewl kler.
I've said my piece about exclusion. Now you can see who practices it. I can read what you guys said, others taking part in this forum can't. Thanks for ignoring them.
Hemm o ynter Morvras ha my ha nyns usi an mater styryes yn Kernewek ow tynnerghi tus le es an kows yethoniethek Evertype po Panini. Martesen yth igoras Evertype an neusenn ma mes nyns yw ev hy ferghennek.
This was between Morvras and me and this issue expressed in Cornish is no less inclusive than Evertype or Panini's linguistic speak. Evertype may have opened this thread but he doesn't own it!
You could have a thread called "The origin of irregular stress in Cornish". Or you could talk about it here. Nevertheless I opened this thread to get people's views about a possible requirement for Cornish orthography.
I see your point, but people were posting in Cornish here (mostly KK at that) before I got involved. There are actually some quite serious and difficult questions here. Like "What's the point of having a language if you're not allowed to use it?" and "Isn't the whole point of speaking a minority language that you can talk amongst yourselves without outsiders butting in?" The difference between the "language barrier" and exclusion based on race or class or wealth etc. is that anyone can get past it if they really want to, it just stops people from casually walking in.
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
But this is an open forum. Your "outsiders" might well be those who want to learn Cornish but are not prepared to until the SWF has been agreed upon in order to avoid confusion. I don't count anyone on these threads as "outsiders" (with one clear exception).
I dont agree Marhak, i like to see posts in Cornish, as a learner it shows me usual constructs not just the examples in a book. Sure it takes a while for me to work through whats been said but over all its helpful. And it might just spur people on to learn it if they see it used all the time!
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