Before strops gets too cocky Wales in 1276 Edward I controlled more of Wales than any previous English king ever had and it transpired that Edward eventually destroyed Welsh independence, stamped on her customs and then imposed the rule of English law. Wales fell almost totally under Edward who then established settler towns, built even more castles, encouraged English migration and kept all local offices in English hands. One Welsh historian wrote: 'the idea of "Wales" lives thereafter in the words of the poets'. Now if that happened to Wales how much easier was it for England to subdue the much smaller Cornwall and unilaterally declare it was, to all intents and purposes, part of his English realm. Whatever claims the English monarchs made to over-lordship of Cornwall it's more than likely the population of Cornwall would not have acknowledged they were English anymore than the Welsh would have done. The fact that they the Cornish were a separate people would have been quite strong in the folk memory of the population. We forget these days when we rely almost entirely on written accounts of history whereas right up until recent times it was done by word of mouth and to do this was as important to people then as teaching our children to read is to us now.
What I was saying by comparing Cornwall with Wales is that though Edward conquered Wales and destroyed Welsh independence, that didn't make Wales or Welsh people English and the same for Cornwall and the Cornish people.
This is true Ian, but , unfortunately the folk memory is passed down mainly in the native language.
In the now very limited Gaelic speaking areas of Scotland stories of the ancient past are still passed down as they were centuaries ago, but for the rest of us it is mostly what we can read in English language books.
As the Gaelic speaking poulation declines in it's remaining strongholds, the tales are disappearing with them.
Or another way of putting it would be that Cornwall was naturally assimilated into England without the need for an invasion, the building of castles, or settler towns, and the Cornish language died a natural death due to the populace no longer using it.
Strop uses the word "naturally" - that Cornwall was subsumed in the general course of things. That a never ending tide of Englishness swept into cornwall and all the people were lovingly assimilated and sat around a campfire and sang kum bay ya and Rule britannia. He doesn't go into detail and never will. In Stop's world Cornwall was never 'invaded', the language just died a (there's that word again!) natural death. he doesn't menton the real reasons like the prayer book rebellion and the genocide of 1549. That at its peak Cornish had 40,000 speakers until it was all cut down by the cavalry of Sir Anthony Kingston and his german and italian mercenaries.
“In order zealously to carry out the same, he sent the venerable men of God, brothers Egelmer and Nigel, his fellow-monks, with relics of the saints, into the western parts, namely, Flanders and France. To the northern parts and into Scotland he sent the brothers Fulk and Oger, and into Denmark and Norway the brothers Swetman and Wulsin the younger; while to Wales, Cornwall and Ireland he sent the brothers Augustin and Osbert”
I am a Cornishman living in Paris and I would be most gratefully for your aide in a question that puzzles many Cornish folk.
The question is a basic one and it is what is Cornwall?
Is it a county of England, a county of the UK (but not England) a Duchy or a combination of all of these. Perhaps it is part of the Kingdom of England like Wales (now replaced by the UK) but not part of the country of England.
It is still common for Cornish folk to describe Cornwall as a Duchy, are they misguided and if so should they be informed of their mistake and told once and for all that Cornwall is a County and not a Duchy?
Please could you answer my question taking into consideration the following facts.
1) This definition of county in the Complete Oxford English Dictionary. 2nd Ed 1989 p. 1044.
Whence county was gradually adopted in English ( scarcely before the 15th century ) as an alternative name for the shire, and in due course applied to similar divisions made in Wales and in Ireland, as well as the shires of Scotland, and also extended to those separate parts of the realm which never were shires, as The Duchy of Cornwall, Orkney and Shetland. Part definition of the term County.
This would seem to indicate that Cornwall was a Duchy, a county but not part of England.
2) The Duchy charters which are still law turned all of Cornwall into a Duchy.
3) Taken from Cornwall County Councils website:
In the 19th century the legal arguments of Sir George Harrison, Attorney General to the Duchy of Cornwall, defeat the Crown's aspirations of sovereignty of the Cornish foreshore. The Duchy that Cornwall argues the Duke has sovereignty of Cornwall and not the Crown. During the same case, Parliament defines the Cornish as "aborigines".
On behalf of the Duchy in its successful action against the Crown, which resulted in the Cornwall Submarine Mines Act of 1858, Sir George Harrison (Attorney General for Cornwall) makes this submission.
That Cornwall, like Wales, was at the time of the Conquest, and was subsequently treated in many respects as distinct from England.
That it was held by the Earls of Cornwall with the rights and prerogative of a County Palatine, as far as regarded the Seignory or territorial dominion.
That the Dukes of Cornwall have from the creation of the Duchy enjoyed the rights and prerogatives of a County Palatine, as far as regarded seignory or territorial dominion, and that to a great extent by Earls.
That when the Earldom was augmented into a Duchy, the circumstances attending to it's creation, as well as the language of the Duchy Charter, not only support and confirm natural presumption, that the new and higher title was to be accompanied with at least as great dignity, power, and prerogative as the Earls enjoyed, but also afforded evidence that the Duchy was to be invested with still more extensive rights and privileges.
The Duchy Charters have always been construed and treated, not merely by the Courts of Judicature, but also by the Legislature of the Country, as having vested in the Dukes of Cornwall the whole territorial interest and dominion of the Crown in and over the entire County of Cornwall.
This legal case again would suggest that Cornwall (the county) is a Duchy.
4) Taken from Cornwall County Councils website:
In 1969-71 Kilbrandon Report into the British constitution recommends that, when referring to Cornwall - official sources should cite the Duchy not the County. This was suggested in recognition of its constitutional position.
I believe the report said a Duchy in England however.
5) Taken from Cornwall County Councils website:
In 1863 the Duchy of Cornwall Management Act confirms that the Duke possesses seignory and territorial rights befitting a king.
This act however does not do away with the Duchy or state if Cornwall is a county of England.
As you can see there is much information that contradicts the common perception of Cornwall as a county of England and goes some way to support the opinion of many Cornish folk that Cornwall is in some way different.
Taken into account with the historic quotes and maps below it seems the status of Cornwall is not at all clear. Please click on the map URL's to view them.
1360 : Treaty of Bretigny: "John, by the Grace of God, King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, Earl of Anjou, confirmed the aforesaid; and Richard, King of Germany and Earl of Cornwall, in like manner, confirmed the aforesaid".
The 15th century Croyland Chronicle states "In order zealously to carry out the same, he sent the venerable men of God, brothers Egelmer and Nigel, his fellow-monks, with relics of the saints, into the western parts, namely, Flanders and France. To the northern parts and into Scotland he sent the brothers Fulk and Oger, and into Denmark and Norway the brothers Swetman and Wulsin the younger; while to Wales, Cornwall and Ireland he sent the brothers Augustin and Osbert".
1485 : Polydore Vergil, an Italian cleric commissioned by King Henry VII to write a history of England, states that "The whole country of Britain is divided into four parts, whereof the one is inhabited by Englishmen, the other of Scots, the third of Welshmen, the fourth of Cornish people ... and which all differ among themselves either in tongue, either in manners, or else in laws and ordinances."
1509 : King Henry VIII's coronation procession includes "nine children of honour" representing "England and France, Gascony, Guienne, Normandy, Anjou, Cornwall, Wales and Ireland."
1531 : From the court of King Henry VIII, the Italian diplomat Lodovico Falier writes in a letter that "The language of the English, Welsh and Cornish men is so different that they do not understand each other". He also claims it is possible to distinguish the members of each group by alleged "national characteristics".
1538 : Writing to his government, the French ambassador in London, Gaspard de Coligny Chatillon, indicates ethnic differences thus: "The kingdom of England is by no means a united whole, for it also contains Wales and Cornwall, natural enemies of the rest of England, and speaking a [different] language".
1603 : Following Queen Elizabeth I's death, the Venetian ambassador writes that the "late queen had ruled over five different 'peoples': 'English, Welsh, Cornish, Scottish ... and Irish'".
1616 : Arthur Hopton [later ambassador to Madrid?] writes that "England is ... divided into three great Provinces, or Countries ... speaking a several and different language, as English, Welsh and Cornish".
I look forward to your help in the clarification of this subject
Thank you for your e-mail, and for your kind words; I am very glad to hear that you enjoyed my Book. I'm afraid that your question is simply too difficult for a non-constitutional expert like me to answer! My own opinion, for what it is worth, is that Cornwall is technically a county contained within the kingdom of England, but that it is something much more besides. I suspect that there are many other people out there who could give you a much more precise - and accurate - definition though... I am sorry that I cannot be more helpful.
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Or another way of putting it would be that Cornwall was naturally assimilated into England without the need for an invasion, the building of castles, or settler towns, and the Cornish language died a natural death due to the populace no longer using it.
Total and absalute c**p. Not just wrong Strop, but 120% wrong.
Let me ask, if Cornwall was so totally assimilated, how come there are thousands of Cornish People today who deny that they are English ? How is it that the Cornish Stannary has a right of veto over Westminster by LAW. How come Charles is Head of State and not Liz ? How come the Cornish fought so many Wars against the English? Anglo/Cornish Wars not Rebellions, that is the English perspective. I think that before you go off on one of your episodes, you should at least find out the truth, and not your deluded version of it.
How come the fourth largest religion in Scotland is "Jedi"?
Well now if that be the case, why doesn't the Stannery parliament dismiss all the laws, bodies, agencies, and elections, you've been moaning about, and institute its own? Ermmm.. because its just totally untrue maybe?
Because, he's not, you're just imagining things.
Name them.
I think that you should ask your proctologist if he can find your head.
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A driver from Plymouth dies when his car leaves the road and careers down an embankment in Cornwall.
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Speedway could be coming back to Cornwall if a planning application for a track at Bodmin is accepted.
Rescued girl's parents at bedside
The parents of a French teenager in intensive care after nearly drowning off Cornwall are at her bedside.
Independent review team is named
Review of management at the Royal Cornwall Hospital's Trust to be lead by former nurse with 50 years NHS experience.
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Two hospices that care for thousands of terminally ill adults could be forced to close in a funding shortfall.
Man admits unrelated sex attacks
A man arrested in Cornwall admits sex offences and an attempted murder committed nearly a decade apart.
Death crash footballer has been jailed
Ex-Plymouth Argyle goalkeeper Luke McCormick is jailed for killing two children by dangerous driving.
Sanctuary in financial 'crisis'
A Cornish animal sanctuary, which is home to more than 50 horses, struggles to cover rising fuel and feed costs.
