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Morning star/Evening star |
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Kensa
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Posted: 15.02.2008, 17:55
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registered: Jan. 2008
Posts: 4
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last visit: 12.03.08
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does borlewen really mean the morning star? What is the evening star called? Just a random question but i was curious, as i would have thought it would have been similar to welsh seren y bore, but then i suppose in breton it is gwerelaouen and berelaouwen (i have no idea how aou is pronounced in breton, anyone have an idea?)
edited by: Kensa, Feb 15, 2008 - 05:58 PM
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Nosdan
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Posted: 15.02.2008, 18:12
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registered: Sep. 2006
Posts: 965
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last visit: 14.05.08
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Borlewen - is the Cornish name of Venus - Which is the Morning star.
Mar vedhow avel gelvinek
(as maazed as a curlew)
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govenek
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Posted: 15.02.2008, 19:39
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registered: Feb. 2008
Posts: 40
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last visit: 20.02.08
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venus is both morning and evening star's
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marhak
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Posted: 16.02.2008, 08:38
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registered: Jun. 2006
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last visit: 16.05.08
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Berlewen/Berlowen/Borlowen is "morning star"; there doesn't seem to be a recorded word for "evening star". As Govenek says, they're both Venus, the Cornish name for which is Gwener (latin V usually became GW when borrowed into Cornish which you'll be aware of if you've had VENEReal disease or had happy moments playing around with the Mons VENERis and its close neighbours). Hence Friday: de Gwener.
Mars would be Merth (Tuesday: de Merth - never did quite understand why KG made the vowel <eu>, perhaps someone could enlighten me). Mergher/Merher is Mercury (Wednesday: De Merher). Yow (Jove) is Jupiter (de Yow - in West Cornwall, there is evidence that this was pronounced something like Joe, but with the J like the s of "pleasure", which is why Marhas Yow became Market Jew). Sadorn is Saturn (Saturday: de Sadorn).
Not sure that there is a Cornish word for Uranus (spare us the usual jokes, please, although I'll always remember falling about one night, long ago, when dear old Patrick Moore informed the nation that there was a ring around Uranus, bless him). I would imagine it would be something like Uren, same as the Cornish surname whch derived from Old Welsh/British Urbgen/Urien which, in turn came from Latin Urbanus).
edited by: marhak, Feb 16, 2008 - 07:40 AM
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Eddie-C
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Posted: 16.02.2008, 10:23
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registered: Mar. 2007
Posts: 592
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last visit: 16.05.08
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In his dictionary, NJAW gives:
gorlewen; steren wesper. evening star
an Verlewen. the Morning Star; Lucifer
Wikipedia also gives 2 beautiful loans into English from Greek for the two aspects of Venus: Eophoros, the 'Dawn Bringer' in the east, and Hesperos, the 'Western/Evening Star' just after sunset.
If you'll pardon a brief excursion into teacherly mode, the interesting thing about 'Hesperos' is that it shows an even earlier stage of the historical sound shift Marhak mentioned:
Greek 'Hesper' ->
Latin 'Vesper' ->
Kernewek 'GWesper' (Welsh 'Gosber'), and
Gaelic 'Feasgair/Feascar'.
If you look closely, you'll spot the P > G/C/Q shift between Cornish/Welsh and Gaelic. This is another consistent pattern (e.g. K/W. 'map', G. 'mac'), and is why the two groups are sometimes called 'P' and 'Q' Celtic.
This pattern of initial letters is repeated with other words in this group of languages, such as K. 'gwyn' (wine), 'gwyr' (true), 'gour' (man), 'gwer' (green) and so on. Moreover, there are other sounds that have their own sequences of changes. There's an interesting introductory article about it under 'Sound Changes' in Wikipedia: http://en.wikip...Sound_change
To me, these evolving sound changes over so many centuries are a bit like an historical table of mutations. And they can actually help you to learn extra vocabulary, if you already know another language in the group. For instance, having already learnt Cornish <GWyn, GWyr, Gour>, /gween, gweer, goor/, it might be easier to memorise Gaelic <Fion, Fior, Fear>, /feen, feer, far/ for 'wine', 'true' and 'man'.
edited by: Eddie-C, Feb 16, 2008 - 10:24 AM
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Kernowak y'n Udn Form Screfys?
Hep wow!
Kernewek Acordys? Mar plek!
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morvran
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Posted: 16.02.2008, 16:45
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registered: Mar. 2007
Posts: 915
Status: online
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Vesper was church Latin (e.g. the service of vespers 'evensong') borrowed by the ancient Brits at a time when the 'v' still meant 'w'. This like all initial 'w-'s in British then went on to grow a 'g-' and was inherited by Welsh, Cornish and Breton as gwesper etc. The Irish were christianised by British missionaries and borrowed a sackfull of Latin words the way the Brits pronounced them, but since they didn't have a 'p' at that time, they substituted their 'kw' sound which was the nearest thing they had. After that it developed like a native word with the 'v-' changing to 'f-' and the 'skw' to 'sk' (or in Manx 'st').
All the planet names are from Latin, probably church latin originally, Dies Veneris gives Dy Gwener etc. The eu in Cornish Meurth (and Breton Meurzh) corresponds to the aw in Welsh Mawrth (both 'Wednesday' and the month 'March') which points back to a long-a in Martis 'of Mars', at least the way the ancient Brits pronounced it.
The point is, all these words are Latin borrowed into British as part of the Christian package. So if you're after ancient Celtic mysteries you'll seek in vain. The Celtic names for the planets etc seem to have been lost.
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