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Start ::  Cornwall24 Discussion ::  Cornish Language, Culture and History ::  SWF, For or against
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SWF, For or against

Bardh Posted: 11.03.2008, 22:09

Bardh

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pdunbarRe my previous, is this a malicious communication?

- Pawl


If it's anything like the one I received, I'd say not - too vague and too silly!
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Bardh Posted: 11.03.2008, 22:12

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pdunbarIs there a Canon Law aspect to this?

PM me if you wish.

- Pawl

edited by: pdunbar, Mar 11, 2008 - 03:34 PM


Gwovynn pur dha!
My, ny'woen ann gwortheb.
Yn-sur, y'fvynnav danvon negys pryveth.
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HortonBar Posted: 12.03.2008, 18:24



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I would draw your attention to Issue 11, the September 10th issue of the Relubbus Roundup (if you haven't seen it - go there!) There can be absolutely no doubt about the requirement for the SWF now or we will become the laughing stock depicted in that illustrious organ.

Horton
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morvran Posted: 12.03.2008, 20:44

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I remember once seeing a Norwegian cartoon from around 1920 or thereabouts. There's a riot going on with people fighting in the streets, falling out of houses, carts overturned etc etc. In the forground is a Russian peasant. "Hooray!" he says, "the Revolution has reached Norway!" "Not yet", says a local, "we're still fighting over how you spell it."

And fwiw they still haven't got a Single Written Form, plans to gradually unify their two systems were eventually shelved decades ago.

So it's not just us. In fact most small languages are blessed/plagued with several spelling systems, just look around on the internet.


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Bardh Posted: 12.03.2008, 20:49

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HortonBarI would draw your attention to Issue 11, the September 10th issue of the Relubbus Roundup (if you haven't seen it - go there!) There can be absolutely no doubt about the requirement for the SWF now or we will become the laughing stock depicted in that illustrious organ.

Horton


Give us a few juicy quotes!
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HortonBar Posted: 13.03.2008, 12:59



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Here's one: Statement from the Headmaster of a school in Cornwall in which every language under the sun seems to be taught, bar Cornish:
"I can report, with some pleasure, that I passed my first Language Board Exam. Years later, when I thought of resuming my studies, I discovered that the so-called leaders of the language revival had become infected with the fearsome virus of petty academic preciousness, which had led champions of different forms of Cornish to promote "their" version of the language, as though the matter of language revival were some parlour game.

"Given the small number of Cornish speakers, we could arrive at the ridiculous situation in which each person speaks and writes their own version of the language!"

The Roundup is a bit of fun, but, like all humour, it does occasionally carry serious messages. I do think that this is one.

In relation to the Norwegian story, the obvious difference between Cornwall and Norway is that in Norway Norwegian is the daily used language, whereas in Cornwall it is Sawsnek that is spoken every day.

Kernewek needs to shed all disincentives and multiple spellings is one such.

Horton

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Palores Posted: 13.03.2008, 14:10



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HortonBarKernewek needs to shed all disincentives and multiple spellings is one such.
Well, that rules out the SWF then.
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morvran Posted: 13.03.2008, 16:18

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Having looked around a bit on the internet it seems almost the norm for small and struggling languages to have multiple spellings. A common scenario seems to be (1) an ill-fitting system based on the local majority language, or the language of the missionaries/administrators etc. (2) A scientific notation devised by linguists/anthropologists to record folklore etc. which is overloaded with funny symbols and diacritics, and (3) if they're lucky someone eventually gets round to designing a made-to-measure spelling system that fits the sounds of the language and tells speakers what they need to know and no more.

Here's a prime example of no. (2) -- Micheal, eat your heart out icon_wink

http://www.haid...ton-scan.jpg
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Evertype Posted: 13.03.2008, 16:30

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What on earth makes you think that I am not familiar with Haida orthographies? icon_rolleyes
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pietercharles Posted: 13.03.2008, 17:16



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evertypeWhat on earth makes you think that I am not familiar with Haida orthographies?


I think you've missed the point. icon_rolleyes

I think he is suggesting that Swanton's Haida, which litters the page with diacritics, looks so much like KS that you must be entirely familiar with it and probably used it as a model for KS.

Apparently a Queen Charlotte Island elder said that it was "stunningly attractive". But as Taran reminds us at (almost) every available opportunity, there's no accounting for taste. icon_lol
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morvran Posted: 13.03.2008, 17:35

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I suppose it is possible to get too close to your technical speciality ...
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HortonBar Posted: 13.03.2008, 18:34



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Morvran writes

"Having looked around a bit on the internet it seems almost the norm for small and struggling languages to have multiple spellings".

Is this not precisely the point? A key step for Kernewek to get out of the mire - to cease being a small and struggling language - is to adopt a SWF.

Multiple spellings are the badge of struggling languages - let us give up this badge of shame.

Horton


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morvran Posted: 13.03.2008, 18:51

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Small languages get stuck with crap spelling systems until they improve them. Cornish was tidied up a bit by Nance and then a proper system worked out by Ken George 20-ish years ago. The SWF is NOT NEEDED. It's just a ploy to (a) waste time and money, (b) disempower the Language Board to satisify personal grudges/political aims, and (c) turn the clock back 20 years and lumber Cornish with an inefficient and crummy spelling all over again. It's not intended to take Cornish forward, it's only possible purpose is to get the language stuck in the mire.

If you want a Silly Written Form you'll have to start writing your own lessons and start all over again creating a practical teachable language. If you don't like what we've done over the years, do it yourself -- nearly all the source material is there to be seen on the web now. Most of the people who've contributed to bringing Cornish on are thoroughly pissed off with all of this, and if the SWF is brought in against their will, many of them will just walk away from the language.

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pietercharles Posted: 13.03.2008, 19:29



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HortonBarA key step for Kernewek to get out of the mire - to cease being a small and struggling language - is to adopt a SWF.

Multiple spellings are the badge of struggling languages.


Now I think you've missed the point, Hort.

You see,the SWF will not give you what you can clearly see is necessary (you're not a linguist, are you? It shows).

The point you've missed is that SWF means Standard Written Form. It does not mean Single Written Form, although it used to, before the experts realised that we needed a Multiple Written Form (like a hole in the head, but they're pretending it will be good for us).

And sure enough, the Standard Written Form is indeed a Multiple Written Form.

We used to have multiple Single Written Forms. Now we are going to have a single Multiple Written Form which we will call a Standard Written Form, although it will exist alongside the multiple Single Written Forms.

The SWF which is really an MWF is being sorted out over a number of years by language experts. They're called linguists, and they understand things you don't.

Confused? Oh well, dynnargh anyway!
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Evertype Posted: 13.03.2008, 23:06

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pietercharlesI think he is suggesting that Swanton's Haida, which litters the page with diacritics, looks so much like KS that you must be entirely familiar with it and probably used it as a model for KS.
This is wrong on a number of grounds.

1. KS is not "littered" with diacritics. KS uses them sparingly to mark anomalous vowel length and quality. Such vowels are very much in the minority; the regular quantity rules apply to most vowels.

2. Haida is not "littered" with diacritics. Haida has many more consonants than the Latin alphabet has. How else will you write Haida?

3. Haida doesn't look like KS. This is just disingenuous.

4. The model for diacritic use in KS was Lhuyd.
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