V Tree
A large V shaped pine tree on the Antony estate near Torpoint...
Seaton Beach
Located at the bottom of the Seaton River valley this sand and shingle beach is popular with families. At low tide it joins up with Downderry around the headland...
Seaton River
The Seaton River as it flows out of the valley and through the village of the same name...
Portwrinkle
Looking down over the one time fishing village of Portwrinkle. In the background is the start of Whitsand Bay as it stretches 4 miles down the Rame Peninsula...
We all base our views on the texts, but differ in the way we view them. Dr. Williams, as far as I can make out, seems to think that the texts are written in an orthography designed or at least adapted to reflect the sounds of Cornish at the time, and so can be taken more or less at face value. We think they were written in a sort of 'hand-me-down' English system that was a rather ill-fitting garment, and so have to be interpreted along with other evidence to determine what really lay behind them. In principle both hypothesis are possible, and a proper debate could be had as to which is most plausible in the light of all the evidence, (linguistic, historical etc.)
One of the weaknesses of the proposed SWF, which I'm surprised either side accepted, concerns the sounds written <oe> in KK. In stressed syllables most of these are to be written <oo>. This looks a bit silly, and might mislead learners over the correct pronunciation, but nevertheless does at least distinguish the sound unambiguously. The problem over this sound is that for reasons I won't go into here, the texts often don't bother to distinguish KK's <oe> from <o> in stressed syllables.
However in unstressed syllables, rather paradoxically, KK's <oe> and <o> are frequently written differently in the texts. As 'u' and 'o'. This was not a problem because the scribes wrote phonetically and the /y/ sound (='French u as in lune') which is the usually value of <'u'> in the texts was always pronounced like <'i'> or <y> when unstressed, and so written <y>. That left the sign <'u'> free to be used for the unstressed KK <oe> sound. Thus we have for example arloedh 'lord', a very common word indeed, nearly always written <arluth> and very very rarely <arloth>. Likewise galloez 'power' mostly written <gallus> and so on ... In addition this difference is supported by the rhymes in the texts, in BK especially, where e.g. arloedh rhymes with the english word 'forsooth', clearly more of an 'oo' sound than an 'o' sound. Since Dr. Williams edited the academic version of BK, he can hardly have missed this distinction, even if it had passed him by in the other texts. Why then was it overlooked?
To me this is a very clear example of how the SWF is unacceptable linguistically. As such it will sooner or later come in for the sort of academic jibes that were leveled at UC, 'made up language' and so on. It also leads to an unnecessary alternation in spelling between e.g. "gallos" 'power' and "galoosek" 'powerful' etc. Both could seriously jeopardise its acceptance in education.
Clearly the language has been allowed to become a politicians' plaything. The SWF pleases no-one, not the Kesva, not AT, and certainly not teachers and linguists. Was it perhaps intended to please no-one so as to put us all off learning Cornish? It certainly hasn't 'healed the split'.
And 1 who has given his answer on another thread, but at the moment, I can't find it.
At the moment, it looks like the For's have it.
Anyone else want to express a simple non argumentative opinion?
I think it would be worth your while, in that it will give everyone an idea, at least as far as the contributors to this forum are concerned, what support, if any the SWF will have when it is finally ready.
Kernow Kensa!
Our day will come!
"Everyone has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
At the moment, MN is telling us that there isn't a SWF. Taran, singing from the same hymnsheet, confirms that what will make an SWF acceptable to the Authenticists is that it's not KK and is thoroughly purged of all features that they might deem to be KK. Consequently, it doesn't look as if they'll permit there to be a definable SWF soon.
Consequently, it's impossible to answer this question. Sad, but that's how the Authenticists want it. They usually seem to have a sound operational reason for what would otherwise seem to be mere vagaries of behaviour. And, as usual, I've no doubt that the reason will come out.
The Kesva, which promotes Kernewek Kemmyn as the best orthography for Revived Cornish, has always had the aim of making the texts available to the public.
Originally the Kesva published the texts in Unified with an English translation.
When Kernewek Kemmyn was adopted a policy developed of making the original textual spellings available in parallel text with Kernewek Kemmyn and a translation to English.
The Kesva has in fact published far more Cornish in the original textual spelling than any other publisher.
Morvran has shown by his contributions on this list and elsewhere that he is a considerable scholar of the texts with an excellent competence at reading original mss.
The problem with attempting to guage opinion using questions with 'yes, no or undecided' is that the data produced can be so simplified that it is limited usefulness. It may even be misleading.
At present even those who were involved in the horse-trading at Treyarnon appear unable to agree on what the result was. (The 'official' version is, apparently and on the highest authority, 'not quite correct'.)
So anyone giving an opinion on the SWF at present is double guessing a pig in a poke.
Pawl, i was not dismiss the Kesva excellent work at bringing the MSS to the public, or in fact morvrans linguistic or scholarly atributes...
But he said this:
For a kemmyn supporter to advocate a spelling system because its in the texts on one hand yet spell words according to kemmyn rules which don't look much like the MSS on the other seems to me to be cheap.
Also he suggests re-instating the final unstress -nn why?
Pawl, with all due respect, I really think that you, and your fellow antagonists, on both sides of the fence, are totally missing the point.
Surly, the whole point about a revival is that something gets revived. In this case, I would have thought that the goal was to get Cornish being used by the ordinary Cornish man woman and child in the street. When that happens, the language, and the bloody spelling, will take on a life of it's own, it will become a living language once again.
For this to happen, the ordinary person in the street has to hear the language, they have to see the language, it has to have relevance for them.
As I understand it, the SWF, when it is ready in what ever form it eventually takes, is the spelling system that is going to be used by "official" bodies in their "publications", it is the system that will be used on street signs etc. In short, it is the system that people will see. For that reason, I can understand why it would be important to make it as near "perfect" as possible.
However, please bear in mind the end user, you know, the non academic ordinary guy in the street, in general, they can read and write, including being able to spell(ish) in english, which has a rather confusing system of spelling of its own, what with things like "magic E", "I before E except after C(usually)", "silent letters"(why?), etc etc etc. Most of these people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a verb and a noun. It is not going to make the slightest difference to them what "glyphs" are used, if there is a "z" or not, let alone why. All they will want is a spelling system that they can follow. It really dose not matter if to you it doesnt "look" Cornish, to them it will
When the day, hopefully, comes when people are learning their language in droves, your petty squabbles, about who did what, first, to whom, and where, and the reasons, real or imaginary, behind it all, will be totally forgotten, or brought back as a sketch on Cornish TVs own version of spitting image. It will not matter, what will, and dose, matter is that this continual childish behaviour is responsible for Cornish not being where it should, it has been held back, to the extent that we now have the english government interfering, telling us how we will arrive at the spelling system that will eventually be used for our, not their, but our language. Thanks.
Most parents if they caught their children behaving the way you academics are behaving now, would give them a clip around the ear and send them to bed until they learnt better.
We have a chance, with the SWF (whatever it turns out to be) to give the revival a kick start, to get things moving again, who knows when, or even if we will get the chance again. It is time to put your petty quarrels and your pride away, and work for the SWF, whether you like it or not, for the good of the Cornish Language, for it is that which is important, not you.
Kernow Kensa!
Our day will come!
"Everyone has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
Oh Dear! It's the "magic wand" scenario once again. All we have to do is be nice well behaved children and the grown-ups in London will give us double pocket money, and somehow wave a magic wand so that we all speak Cornish again. In your dreams, I'm afraid.
You're right that Cornish has to become relevant to more people before they'll learn it. Fortunately Cornish is already relevant to at least a few people, and as their numbers grow those on the margins get tipped over from passive good will to actually speaking the language. And so far it's been a rolling process, and hopefully it will keep on rolling, so that one day, maybe even you, or realistically perhaps your grand-kids will speak it.
And funding will oil the wheels, but can't provide the motive power, that has to arise from within the nation itself. And unity of the movement might be adventageous, but then again perhaps diversity has its points?
But at the end of the day the language can only advance by individuals getting their backsides into Cornish classes, or using some other means to learn and then to use the language and pass it on to others. We're all so use to it it hardly causes more than a shrug and smile, but really it is out of order for you and all the rest of that wonderful Good Intentions Brigade, to lecturer us on how to advance or not to advance the language, when the one thing you (and all those like you) need to do is just to learn the bloody language. But hell will freeze first, I fear.
ShelterBox team in 'good spirits'
A Cornish charity packs another 1,000 survival boxes after becoming one of the first teams into the Burmese cyclone zone.
Man hurt in 'tombstoning' plunge
A man suspected of "tombstoning" off a cliff in Cornwall is in hospital with spinal injuries
Work begins to repair canal gates
Work is under way to repair the storm-damaged lock gates of Cornwall's Bude Canal.
Brown wants more homes for young
Gordon Brown says he wants to help young people in Cornwall buy houses
Gangmaster hits back after losing licence
A gangmaster has spoken out after having his licence revoked amid claims of forced labour.
Pupil's punishment 'not enough'
A mother criticises a one-day suspension for a pupil who attacked her daughter at a Cornish school.
Prime Minister visits Eden
The Prime Minister made an impromptu visit to Cornwall today and enjoyed an extensive tour of the Eden Project.
Flora day celebrations
Thousands flocked to Helston's ancient Flora Day on Thursday and while they arrived in their droves, rain - thankfully - stayed (mostly) away.
