V Tree
A large V shaped pine tree on the Antony estate near Torpoint...
Seaton Beach
Located at the bottom of the Seaton River valley this sand and shingle beach is popular with families. At low tide it joins up with Downderry around the headland...
Seaton River
The Seaton River as it flows out of the valley and through the village of the same name...
Portwrinkle
Looking down over the one time fishing village of Portwrinkle. In the background is the start of Whitsand Bay as it stretches 4 miles down the Rame Peninsula...
Well, to be accurate, the elected Kesva members are elected almost exclusively by the KK faction who are members of the KK Cowethas. Users of the other forms of Revived Cornish tend to support either Agan Tavas or Cussel an Tavas, depending on whether they favour Unified of Late/Modern Cornish. There's no reason why they would want to get involved in a KK pressure group, is there?
The claims of the Kesva and the Cowethas to 'represent the Cornish speaking community' are a lie, as are their claims to be 'democratic' and 'official'.
Why is it, Keith, that you have so much difficult with English spelling, yet you seemingly expect others to take seriously your crack-pot ideas about Cornish spelling?
'Unauthordox' is almost as good as your previous best malapropism, 'amature'.
Love it!
You seem to have similar 'challenges' with numbers, don't you? You've repeatedly claimed that "98% of people use Kemyn". Yet, as I've shown several times before on this forum, the membership figures of the language organisations representing the 3 main factions within the revival do not support your endlessly repeated claim to be opposed by a mere 'handful' or a 'few old fossils'. Once more, here are the figures:
UC/R: about 200 (current membership of Agan Tavas)
RLC: about 200 (current membership of Cussel an Tavas)
KK: 279 (Cowethas membership, 2005/6 Survey).
Guess what: if we're a 'handful', you're even smaller!
Yes Eddie, but how many of those Agan Tavas types speak or even read the language, how many go to the Cornish language weekends or other events? I think that you will find more speakers and writers belong to the Kowethas than the others combined. This has been stated before, but as usual you are too thick to comprehend.
As you well know, my dear ol' Eddie, the Kowethas is a democratic organisation with policy decided by it's elected committee, or by AGM. The reason it supports (mainly, not exclusively) KK is because that's what the overwhelming majority of Cornish speakers/learners want. If your lot had half the support it claims they would all join and change that policy. But they prefer to withdraw and shout insults from the sidelines because they know full well that they are far too few to have much influence within a democratic set-up.
And I must keep repeating this, because people forget or just don't know. When 20 years ago the decisions that you object to were made, there was no split (apart from a handful of Late Cornish ) and the people now in Agan Tavas were as much part of those decisions as anyone else. But they were a tiny minority and lost.
How many more decades must pass before they grow up and stop being such Pathetic Bad Losers? They behave like 5 year olds.
"are the differences between the forms verbal as well as visual (spelling), or not?"
As for the "protagonists", I would have thought that to have been obvious, but as a hint, I quoted one of them in my other post.
I also notice that no one has really commented on what I have heard regarding the SWF being finished, and being published at the end of April. Is my information correct?
Kernow Kensa!
Our day will come!
"Everyone has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
With such small numbers for the respective organisations,UC/R: about 200 (current membership of Agan Tavas)
RLC: about 200 (current membership of Cussel an Tavas)
KK: 279 (Cowethas membership, 2005/6 Survey).
and with the general distaste for the SWF proceedings, would'nt it be best for the leader's of the respective factions to sit down and examine where the SWF has gone wrong?
Surely in everyone's interest, 600 members / fluent speakers is tiny.
Given the average age of the speakers, what hope is there of the language florishing, or even surviving, without effective dialogue between parties?
Yes. But considering they don't trust each other and in several instances seem to be affected by paranoid delusions, I think that we can safely discount this option
Chances are that only 300~400 are fluent, not to mention all the people who are subscribers to more than one club.
The numbers game is stupid from all sides, until the Maga survey results are published, and that finished over a month ago.
I think you'll also find the 50% of all group members don't care what the spelling looks like and 45% of the rest of them are happy with a compromise just to get a decision.
Its a disgrace that the results weren't available to the commissioners and that we still don't know them. Do you know, its almost as though they are being suppressed until the SWF has been decided on and published. Could'nt be just paranoia, could it? Surely not
Why is it proving so difficult to collate a few hundred survey returns? Could it be that there are so many that the office has been swamped? Could it be that the form's were so very complicated that the data on them requires serious time on a Cray to collate?
Or could it be that there are some influential (or just plain noisy) people who dont want the numbers of supporters (or lack thereof) of each form to be known? Perhaps the number of people who would have been happy just to use one of the existing form's and get the process over with would prove embarrassing so it's being kept quiet until after the protracted process is over? Perhaps we'll never know.
That survey would be useless, for one thing it was in English,anyone can say they are fluent, or have a working knowledge of the language. I am sure Agan Tavas got a whole load of people to say they are fluent,
What evidence, may i ask, do you have that no Agan Tavas members do not speak Cornish?
Go to Ray Chubb (i believe he is in Agan Tavas) or another member, and if then, they dont speak Cornish, then you can say that. UNTIL THEN, its rather derogatory to them, at which, they COULD purue legal action.
The only reasonably reliable and objective figures are those for publications in the various forms. Number of titles published/reprinted in each form over the past 10 years say (or since whenever it was UCR got going, or lump it in with UC if you wish). That would be very easy to find out because publications are by their very nature public. Better still would be some idea of the number of copies sold, which could probably be worked out from the records of the organisations, or at least (perhaps better?) the income from publications sold, which would be in their published accounts. I would leave out dictionaries and bibles, because these are often bought by 'collectors' or people only very casually interested in the language, or perhaps as a curiosities by visitors etc. Also dictionaries and even to some extent grammar books are of use regardless of the system used.
So what should be looked at is basically 'literature' in the narrower sense, and perhaps also beginners' courses.
Now whenever these questions have been asked here, the answer always seems to boil down to : KK lots, UC(R) nothing very much, RLC maybe a poem or six. Which then prompts the question, who are all these 600 AT/RLC people and what is the nature of their interest in the language. We don't see them at events, they don't seem to write books, make very much music, etc. etc. What do they do then. How do we even know they exist?
-------
The Process is badly flawed and hence the SWF will be a mess. The object was to discover the best form to use in schools and official business. At first sight KK seemed obvious. Most users, most resources, simple logical system ... But there were a few critics, one who happened to be a 'Celtic Scholar', who claimed that (a) large numbers of Cornish users didn't like/want KK, and (b) the science behind Ken Geroges work was rubbish. The Council needed some independent body to look at these claims, so that if they were false they could go ahead with KK. The Commission was generally accepted because most of us thought this was their remit, indeed it was their official remit. But the Process was somehow perverted. The did not ever see any data on numbers, although they had the power to call for surveys and suchlike. They neither validated nor found fault with the technical underpinning of KK.
Even had they found a good reason to throw out KK, the idea of compromise was neither the only nor the obvious alternative. All other forms and their support and resources ought to have been carefully looked at first. For example, if it turned out that there were a significant number of 'traditionalists' active out there, then perhaps UC should have been the standard. It has the advantage of being well established, resourced, and even KK-ers are quite familiar with it.
Whoever set the 'compromise' ball rolling ought to get the Nobel prize for idiocy. It should have been plain from the start that it could never produce a workable result, not even with the best will in the world. And there has been an almost desperate infusion of good will, and the result as far as we know, is still, predictably, a mess.
Why? Because each form is designed according to different principles and for a different 'market'. Leave aside for the moment the fact that NJAW seems to have done no market research and so produced a line of products (UCR, KS, SWF??) that literally only a handful of eccentrics will ever buy. We're not dealing with cosmetics, what shade of blue to have the carpet or whatever, where a middle ground exists between different peoples' preferences. We're dealing with basically incompatible systems and aims. There is no middle ground, the greater good for the greatest number. The middle ground in this case is really not acceptable to anyone. Michael wants us all to lose. What is the point of that? Except to the enmies of Cornish. No wonder we're all paranoid. If we weren't paranoid before the Process began ...
Why all the delays, the secrecy, the lack of consultation, the failure to follow remits. It makes you wonder if someone isn't deliberately trying to wind us all up, and sowing confusion rather than clarifying matters.
Oh Elvenlord, you are getting tiresome, I know you are young, but still, Ray Chubb yes , that is one, 199 others to go, what proof do you have that they all speak Cornish,?
The number of fluent speakers in AT can be counted on your fingers, and you may only need one hand. We know who they are, we've all know them for years and years.
Indeed, No one seems to know except maybe Michael and he can't tell us. Apparently everyone has been vowed to secrecy.
I don't know why, since They decided to have a dual form, that they didn't just adopt KK as one form and KS as the other. Are they still arguing over what they agreed to agree to?
I think its telling the albert and ben havn't been on here for ages... I think they're being worked to the bone!
Its been incredibly quiet for the last week and a bit. This means were very close to a form being decided and finalised or... Someones thrown a spanner in the works and everyones given up.
Of course without Maga doing anything to let us know... It could be either. Or a shade in between. Role on next spring......
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