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Start ::  Cornwall24 Discussion ::  Cornish Language, Culture and History ::  SWF, For or against
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SWF, For or against

Nosdan Posted: 26.03.2008, 17:47

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I was just going on what Evertype said.....

QuoteFurf is attested once in the OCV. Form and derivatives are attested some 60+ times


From what he says its in the text... ergo... its attested and allowable. Its sounds as if it was less used in the MC Mss so I guess it is a re-introduction.

Mar vedhow avel gelvinek
(as maazed as a curlew)
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shrdlu Posted: 26.03.2008, 18:06

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NosdanFrom what he says its in the text... ergo... its attested and allowable.


If we can only use words in the texts, Cornish will be hamstrung from the outset. icon_smile
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morvran Posted: 27.03.2008, 01:57

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Well don't we need all the (near) synonyms we can find? furv is an older form of form, borrowed by the Ancient Brits off of the Romans and common to W, C, and B. So it should perhaps gives a more formal, old-fashioned or abstract slant. Whereas form is probably best used for "physical form, appearance, (bodily) build" etc.

Another example is froeth ~ frut. The second is the everyday word for what's in the fruit bowl, but the first might be useful for say the botanical term 'fruit' which includes things you wouldn't put in the fruit bowl (like nuts).

And on that note ... icon_smile

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pietercharles Posted: 27.03.2008, 08:47



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morvranWell don't we need all the (near) synonyms we can find?


I think this is true, but just as you have done with 'furv' and 'frut' we need to work out what the differences are, and start using them appropriately.

The 'tota cornicitas' concept is fine, but when we have a dictionary containing every word of Cornish that was ever uttered or written, we really do need to work out under what circumstances one word is more appropriate than the other. It's no good, in my opinion, just listing 'konvedhes', 'onderstondya' and 'kavoes ow drift' under 'understand'. People will want to know when they might use one and when another might be 'better'.
Absolute synonyms are unhelpful in the extreme and I suspect most languages have very few, if any (I can't think of any in English).
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Panini Posted: 27.03.2008, 09:01

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The form given in the Vocabularium Cornicum is "fruit", not "froeth" and is Old French. Suggestions that there might have been a Brythonic "*fruTtos" are purely speculative and without any solid foundation.

morvranWell don't we need all the (near) synonyms we can find? furv is an older form of form, borrowed by the Ancient Brits off of the Romans and common to W, C, and B. So it should perhaps gives a more formal, old-fashioned or abstract slant. Whereas form is probably best used for "physical form, appearance, (bodily) build" etc.

Another example is froeth ~ frut. The second is the everyday word for what's in the fruit bowl, but the first might be useful for say the botanical term 'fruit' which includes things you wouldn't put in the fruit bowl (like nuts).

And on that note ... icon_smile

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Palores Posted: 27.03.2008, 09:34



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PaniniSuggestions that there might have been a Brythonic "*fruTtos" are purely speculative and without any solid foundation.

Who is suggesting this? We need look no further than Latin fructus to find the source of W ffrwyth and B frouezh. Old Cornish fruit is entirely consistent with these, provided that the -t is interpreted as /T/; whence we get froeth.
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Panini Posted: 27.03.2008, 10:14

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As you say, Palores, W ffrwyth and B frouezh are from Latin. The form in Vocabularium Cornicum is Old French. There is simply no need to assume the <t> in VC "fruit" is /T/. KK 'froeth' is unattested and based on a purely hypothetical Old Cornish form for which there is no direct evidence. Furthermore we have the well attested 'frut', so there is simply no need for 'froeth'.


Palores
PaniniSuggestions that there might have been a Brythonic "*fruTtos" are purely speculative and without any solid foundation.

Who is suggesting this? We need look no further than Latin fructus to find the source of W ffrwyth and B frouezh. Old Cornish fruit is entirely consistent with these, provided that the -t is interpreted as /T/; whence we get froeth.
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Palores Posted: 27.03.2008, 12:07



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PaniniThe form in Vocabularium Cornicum is Old French.
Just because frut (from French, either directly or via English) is attested in Middle Cornish does not mean that fruit in the Voc. Corn. is Old French. That is just an assumption. It is an equally valid assumption that the form is Cornish, cognate with W ffrwyth, B frouezh. The use of t for /T/ in Voc. Corn. is common, e.g. kat for kath, bat for bath. If Panini dislikes froeth, then he need not use it.
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Panini Posted: 27.03.2008, 13:45

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If "It is an equally valid assumption that the form is Cornish", then KK'froeth' is still based on a purely hypothetical reconstructed form. You do not know whether the final <-t> of VC'fruit' represents /t/ or /T/. However I do not consider the two assumptions to be "equally" valid because VC'fruit' is identical in form with OldFrench'fruit'.

It is futile to argue that I needn't use 'froeth' if I don't happen to like the word. The issue is important. If our dictionaries are filled with unnecessary reconstructions of this kind, then revived Cornish will inevitably be criticised as being a conlang, not real Cornish. It is one thing to fill gaps in the Cornish lexicon with such reconstructed forms, it is another to list 'froeth' in dictionaries and pedagogical materials when we have a perfectly good, well attested form 'frut'.

Palores
PaniniThe form in Vocabularium Cornicum is Old French.
Just because frut (from French, either directly or via English) is attested in Middle Cornish does not mean that fruit in the Voc. Corn. is Old French. That is just an assumption. It is an equally valid assumption that the form is Cornish, cognate with W ffrwyth, B frouezh. The use of t for /T/ in Voc. Corn. is common, e.g. kat for kath, bat for bath. If Panini dislikes froeth, then he need not use it.




edited by: Panini, Mar 27, 2008 - 01:54 PM
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morvran Posted: 27.03.2008, 15:22

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Two questions arise here. 1. Are French loans at all common in VC and the few documents of a similar early date, and if so do they relate to any particular semantic domains. 2. Is there any reason to believe that French "fruit" would have been borrowed in a form written "fruit" in VC with a diphthong ([yj]?) rather than with simple /y/ as in MC "frut"?

OTOH the regular development L fructus borrowed as British /fruxtos/ >> Late Brit. /fruIT/ >> OC 'fruit(h)' [ >> MC /froT/ 'froeth'] is just what would be expected.

Even if the OCV attestation were absent, it would still be perfectly reasonable to borrow a technical term on the strength of W and B. Or even in fact to take the word from Latin and 'naturalise' it by using the form that would have come to Cornish through British. Far fetched? There must be scores of English Greek-derived neologisms which have been treated as though they'd come to us via Latin and French.

Panini appears to have made the common layman's mistake of taking a text naively at face value. They have to be interpreted in the context of their time.
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shrdlu Posted: 27.03.2008, 15:25

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Paninibased on a purely hypothetical reconstructed form


A lot of Cornish is. Cornish would be full of yawning gaps if we didn't fill them with something.
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Panini Posted: 27.03.2008, 15:40

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The point that I was making is that this is not a "yawning gap". We have a perfectly good and well attested word 'frut'. 'Froeth' is, therefore, a needless reconstruction.

shrdlu
Paninibased on a purely hypothetical reconstructed form


A lot of Cornish is. Cornish would be full of yawning gaps if we didn't fill them with something.
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morvran Posted: 27.03.2008, 15:42

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Every word almost, since no-one alive has ever heard "Traditional Cornish" spoken. Even Lhuyd has to be interpreted. Who were his sources (mostly we don't really know). what were his working methods? How much of his material was from written sources how much contemporary spoken Cornish. How good was his ear, how much was he influenced by his native Welsh ...

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Panini Posted: 27.03.2008, 15:50

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morvran.... OTOH the regular development L fructus borrowed as British /fruxtos/ >> Late Brit. /fruIT/ >> OC 'fruit(h)' [ >> MC /froT/ 'froeth'] is just what would be expected.

But purely conjectural nevertheless.

morvranEven if the OCV attestation were absent, it would still be perfectly reasonable to borrow a technical term on the strength of W and B. Or even in fact to take the word from Latin and 'naturalise' it by using the form that would have come to Cornish through British.

But since we already have a perfectly good, well attested word 'frut', neither a borrowed word nor a form based on hypothetical reconstruction are necessary or even desirable.
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Palores Posted: 27.03.2008, 15:53



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morvranPanini appears to have made the common layman's mistake of taking a text naively at face value.

This is how the Hibernocentric school of Cornish linguistics operates.
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