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Start ::  Cornwall24 Discussion ::  Cornish Language, Culture and History ::  SWF, For or against
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SWF, For or against

shrdlu Posted: 27.03.2008, 15:55

shrdlu

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PaniniThe point that I was making is that this is not a "yawning gap". We have a perfectly good and well attested word 'frut'. 'Froeth' is, therefore, a needless reconstruction.

We have the written word frut, certainly, but since we also know that:

morvranThe use of t for /T/ in Voc. Corn. is common, e.g. kat for kath, bat for bath

Do you know with 100% certainty, Panini, which pronunciation of <t> was meant in frut?
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morvran Posted: 27.03.2008, 15:55

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PaniniThe point that I was making is that this is not a "yawning gap". We have a perfectly good and well attested word 'frut'. 'Froeth' is, therefore, a needless reconstruction.


That is purely a matter of opinion. For some people and some purposes one is consistent with the genius of the language, while the other stands out as foreign. As to which is which and in what contexts, well that as I've said comes down to personal taste.

Given that most of Revived Cornish is reconstructed, we have to ensure that the reconstruction is the best we can attain, consistent with the usual rules and procedures of comparative and historical linguistics and phonology, and based on logical reasoning from plausible assumptions. Rather than on a mess of far-fetched premises, very dodgy logic (rhetoric mostly) and circular arguments from selective instances. The latter is the true conlang (indeed many conlangers could and do do a lot better!) and that is what will discredit Cornish in the eyes of academia if it's allowed to continue.

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morvran Posted: 27.03.2008, 16:03

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shrdlu
PaniniThe point that I was making is that this is not a "yawning gap". We have a perfectly good and well attested word 'frut'. 'Froeth' is, therefore, a needless reconstruction.

We have the written word frut, certainly, but since we also know that:

paloresThe use of t for /T/ in Voc. Corn. is common, e.g. kat for kath, bat for bath

Do you know with 100% certainty, Panini, which pronunciation of <t> was meant in frut?


In any case, even if French 'fruit' had been borrowed into OC it would have gone on to give something like MC *froez or *froes, probably spelled *<fro(y)s>. It could not have given the attested MC <frut>. So we would have to have TWO borrowings from French, once back before OC and again (more likely) directly into MC. Since we know that the Latin word passed into British and that the form it would have taken in OC would be written <fruit(h)> that is clearly the simplest and most probable explanation. Why do certain parties love to make things more complicated than they need be?

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Panini Posted: 27.03.2008, 16:04

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morvranGiven that most of Revived Cornish is reconstructed, we have to ensure that the reconstruction is the best we can attain, consistent with the usual rules and procedures of comparative and historical linguistics and phonology, and based on logical reasoning from plausible assumptions. Rather than on a mess of far-fetched premises, very dodgy logic (rhetoric mostly) and circular arguments from selective instances. The latter is the true conlang (indeed many conlangers could and do do a lot better!) and that is what will discredit Cornish in the eyes of academia if it's allowed to continue.

I agree entirely.
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morvran Posted: 27.03.2008, 16:07

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English has a perfectly servicable word "yearly", so we should ban "annual" or perhaps the other way round if you're a classicist. That is the thrust of Panini's argument.


Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
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morvran Posted: 27.03.2008, 16:08

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Panini
morvranGiven that most of Revived Cornish is reconstructed, we have to ensure that the reconstruction is the best we can attain, consistent with the usual rules and procedures of comparative and historical linguistics and phonology, and based on logical reasoning from plausible assumptions. Rather than on a mess of far-fetched premises, very dodgy logic (rhetoric mostly) and circular arguments from selective instances. The latter is the true conlang (indeed many conlangers could and do do a lot better!) and that is what will discredit Cornish in the eyes of academia if it's allowed to continue.

I agree entirely.


Can we quote you on that Dr. Mills icon_evil


Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
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Panini Posted: 27.03.2008, 16:10

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morvranEnglish has a perfectly servicable word "yearly", so we should ban "annual" or perhaps the other way round if you're a classicist. That is the thrust of Panini's argument.

Unlike 'froeth', neither 'yearly' nor 'annual' are hypothetical reconstructions.
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morvran Posted: 27.03.2008, 16:16

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pietercharles
The 'tota cornicitas' concept is fine, but when we have a dictionary containing every word of Cornish that was ever uttered or written, we really do need to work out under what circumstances one word is more appropriate than the other. It's no good, in my opinion, just listing 'konvedhes', 'onderstondya' and 'kavoes ow drift' under 'understand'. People will want to know when they might use one and when another might be 'better'.
Absolute synonyms are unhelpful in the extreme and I suspect most languages have very few, if any (I can't think of any in English).


An interesting article on a similar problem with Welsh dictionaries (at least until quite recently), much of this is relevent to Cornish, lets learn from others' mistakes.

http://gwybodia...m#desiderata

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morvran Posted: 27.03.2008, 16:22

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Panini
morvranEnglish has a perfectly servicable word "yearly", so we should ban "annual" or perhaps the other way round if you're a classicist. That is the thrust of Panini's argument.

Unlike 'froeth', neither 'yearly' nor 'annual' are hypothetical reconstructions.


Don't recall that "annual" featured much in Anglo-saxon. But what about all the made-up 'ink-horn' words? When a zoologist talks about "cephalisation" or a chemist about a "chelating agent" they are using pseudo-Greek words, contrived to look as though they had been borrowed from Ancient Greek to Classical Latin and thence passed through French into English. All of which is clearly total fiction.

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fwltur Posted: 27.03.2008, 17:55



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morvranEvery word almost, since no-one alive has ever heard "Traditional Cornish" spoken. Even Lhuyd has to be interpreted. Who were his sources (mostly we don't really know). what were his working methods? How much of his material was from written sources how much contemporary spoken Cornish. How good was his ear, how much was he influenced by his native Welsh ...


Morvran is right. All evidence should be carefully examined not just taken on face value. The textual material has to be approached by viewing it in the total context, especially since the origins of much of it is unknown.
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Bardh Posted: 27.03.2008, 21:00

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Morvran is right, on the whole. As between frut, frutys, fruyth/froeth, and the more recent froethenn, there is obviously scope for a measure of semantic refinement. However, before we make any recommendations we must make a very careful examination of the use of these various items in Recent Modern Cornish. We desperately need a comprehensive corpus on which to work. While I (like many of us) have fairly clear impressions of how some areas of the vocabulary have developed over the past century or so, I'd feel much happier with more precise data.

Morvran ... and that is what will discredit Cornish in the eyes of academia if it's allowed to continue.


We'll have to agree to disagree here. I'm less persuaded than ever that this is either meaningful or relevant.

Tramezzini has clearly fallen victim to our old friend the category mistake. He's airing hypotheses about early mediaeval etymology to people who are discussing modern usage. "Trist iawn, very sad.", as they say in Bryncoch.
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Evertype Posted: 27.03.2008, 21:33

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Of course if you don't write frūt you will have people mispronouncing it as [fryt]~[frıt].
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pietercharles Posted: 27.03.2008, 22:59



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Of course, if you DO write frūt you'll be...well, you'll be on your own!
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Bardh Posted: 27.03.2008, 23:00

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... old fruit!
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marhak Posted: 27.03.2008, 23:37

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Since when was Michael the apple of your eye, then, Tim?
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