Mat, The situation with the Duchy of Cornwall has clear evidence, which has been stated many times on these threads. I am not attempting to prove a ”contemporary conspiracy”, I am showing the reasoning behind what is a ”contemporary wrong”
As I have said before, each case must rest on its own particular reasoning and the only ones actually seeking political autonomy, or as close as it can get to it, is Mebyon Kernow. Not aware that they employ the ‘not England’ gambit. I do not ever seek anything more than publicising the reasoning behind the contrived Cornish Paradox as an aid to increasing more public awareness.
I feel sure, that a study of history and the fall from grace of Imperialism, brought about by the rise of nationalism, will more than show that independence, or greater autonomy, has originated because of a desire for more control over one’s own affairs. Rights for National Minorities and, latterly issues relating to Cultural Nations and Autochthonous Minorities, should bear witness to this. Within the UK set-up, Cornwall is doubly damned because the evils of Imperialism incorrectly place Cornwall ‘in England’. Wales & Scotland were in danger of being incorrectly placed within ‘the Island of England’.
That, I have a difficulty with, because the very act of being ‘Cornish’ is political and I believe that just to defend the ‘Cornish’ position is a political act. I also believe that to deny the ‘Cornish’ recognition, is also a political act. The psychological actions of genocide, whatever you think of this hypothesis, are also deliberately political acts.
We can certainly agree to disagree on this. I would, however, be interested in the Mebyon Kernow view of this as to who applies the pressure and whether there is a component of constituency voting that would in its turn add to the pressure. It would appear to require a symbiotic relationship?
I have been naming those guilty of collusion (at the top) now for the past 20 plus years, and within this exchange, and they are ‘untouchable’. Perhaps your example is closer than you think!
I am more than happy with that and the evidence is there, but it means a lot of reading about Imperialism (English in particular), Greater State Chauvinism, historical observations and commentary, Anglo-British synonymy, External perceptions of ‘Britain’. Not conspiratorial but an almost universal political shift over the past 100 years.
An interesting observation noted from a TV programme on Winston Churchill, was his inability to understand why India wished to be independent from the Empire, yet he could well grasp the Imperialistic threat posed from Hitler.
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE!- The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within the UK.
And I agree with you, and have pretty much consistently for a year, since I started getting into this.
Yes. Which prompts the response that for the political aims of Cornish Nationalism, Cornish Nationalist (of any variety) have only three political choices
1 support MK,
2 start a new Cornish political Party
3 be absent from the Duchy's politics.
Am I missing something here?
Yes, that seems very clear to me
What "Rights" do you want for the Cornish Minority. This is something I just don't get, as to in the ideal, what the end-game is for Champions of Cornish rights that would make any difference to any Cornish person's quality of life.
Do you not see that as soon as you start saying things like the above you are accusing some political group of deliberate genocide and based on tense, your saying its persistent in the present?
Is that really what you are saying?
As said elsewhere I am not prepared to speak for MK Im not their spokesman and Im not here on their behalf
And 911 Conspiracy Theorists say exactly the same about the 911 attacks.
I haven't seen any recent proof. Remember, we are in total agreement up until 1858, I am not sure what happens after that but would like the proof you allude to.
I just don't see this! I'm trying! I am being as objective as I can
Names. Deeds. Evidence of those Names doing those deeds. I havent seen any of this.
Sure, granted all the above. Cant that be explained just by the political climate changing as the world changes and more complex and wider hegemonies emerge.
Have you looked at the potential that there is no "human deception" but rather the system itself creates the unfairness and injustice you are so affronted by? This certainly happens with Corporations, I see no reason why not with national establishments and institutions.
Do you acknowledge that that could be the case?
Thanks
Mat
edited by: FreakoMbiko, Jun 03, 2008 - 11:36 AM
Freako Mbiko
Please Visit the Wonderful Continent of Kernow and, after that, check out my blogs:
Matt as I see it if the Cornish people can gain minority recognition it will the best thing that could happen for all the people of Cornwall.
If we can get them recognised as a minority, then the minority population has protection as far as dilution of the minority is concerned.
This in effect (and I'm told its not quite that simple) can at least slow down the amount of people moving here and the building of 70k houses in the Duchy.
This I see as a crucial selling point in getting all people pulling together to push for recoginition for the Cornish people...
It would be good, I don't think it would be the best thing personally, but thats because i dont really know what the effects could be:
I just don't see that. Lets assume you get recognized, what then of the political change that could protect the "Cornish Minority", I cannot imagine any kind of law that could, at least not that would be tolerated by Europe or England.
Mat
I cant
This I see as a crucial selling point in getting all people pulling together to push for recoginition for the Cornish people...
[/quote]
Freako Mbiko
Please Visit the Wonderful Continent of Kernow and, after that, check out my blogs:
It is the Advisory people from Europe who are asking the UK Government to include the Cornish in the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.
The UK Gov made a point of not including the Cornish even though they qualify for almost every criteria set for inclusion.
The UK have been lying through their back teeth to keep the Cornish out, the only minority in the world out of 6300 NOT to be recognised by the UK. And you say there's no hidden agendas going on?
You miss the point of my point Moonshine What I am saying is that even assuming the Cornish get included in the Framework what would the acutual benifts of that inclusion be for the Cornish.
I can see how it would be a victory for "you".
I can see how you would have proof positive of something "you" have known all along. That's all good.
But, I cannot see the actual benefit for Cornish families and individuals in terms of actual quality of life increases.
Please explain
Mat
Will it mean, for example,
Freako Mbiko
Please Visit the Wonderful Continent of Kernow and, after that, check out my blogs:
I am not impressed by the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.
Some members have not signed up to it, others have added 'conditions' to their signatures, making the framework practically redundant, and I THINK that the UK don't even have a list of what they consider ARE National Minorities in the UK, just a mention that Cornish Ethnicity does NOT constitute a National Minority.
I didn't miss the point of your point at all, you nerd, you just have a psychological need to put yourself in a contradictory position every time someone answers you.
You made a point about how Europe wouldn't accept new laws for the Cornish after recognition - I pointed out that it is Europe instigating it.
You sit there like some poodle asking everyone to "please explain this" and "please explain that"...
When they do you come back like a grannies handbag. Why don't you do some effin research yourself you lazy fart.
Wow Moonshine, you managed to go one post without insulting me and sadly now your back to infants.
Anyways...
I know what my point was, and I know that you missed it. As the following shows:
No, my point was, even assuming acceptance, what would that mean on the ground to the quality of lives of ordinary Coirnish people. You havent answered that.
Please try to
The "this" and "that" are generally either:
Things I am unaware of
Things I am unclear on
Things I doubt and would like further qualified.
I want claims and reasons explained.
This is just a valid method of inquiry that has been used in all fields for milleniua. You it seems, don't need to use this, you take assumptions as truth.
And that's the way of the fool.
Freako Mbiko
Please Visit the Wonderful Continent of Kernow and, after that, check out my blogs:
Mat after previous clashes I don't expect a response from you but here is my two pence worth anyway.
You wrote:
Very true and personally I'm behind MK all the way as well as supporting the constitutional campaigners.
However other nationalists disagree with my broad support of the Cornish movement and see taking part in UK or local elections as a waste of time and resources when other more critical battles need to be fought and won.
They would say that MK will never make any progress because the sense of Cornish identity is weak; they have no power base unlike Plied or the SNP. People in Scotland, however, know they are Scottish and see independence as a real possibility.
This in turn is due to the Cornish being denied a fair and detailed access to their culture and history in schools and the wider public domain.
They go on to suggest that recognition of the Cornish under the FCPNM and other UK/international treaties would ensure a much better access to our culture/history in Schools and a fairer and more independent media in the Duchy. It is also recognised good practise to give national minorities greater autonomy in their own territories as this is one of the best ways to protect them.
Imagin a petition of 50,000 signatures calling for devolution coming from the homeland of a recognised national minority! A bit harder to ignore maybe?
Finally after various attempts to obtain official recognition for the Cornish that were surprisingly and strongly resisted by government the CSP, JA and others have come to the conclusion that the Duchy is in some way involved.
As a quick aside and forgive me if I am wrong but you, Mat, are asking for proof ie some form of letter or document sent between Duchy and government which states "we must, at all costs, prevent the Cornish from getting recognition in order to avoid the Duchy constitutional issue blowing up in all our faces". Is that right?
Anyway following the logic above some Cornish nationalists see tackling the obstacle to Cornish recognition that is the Duchy as the first and most important objective for all nationalists.
To this end they:
1) Look to educate the Cornish as much as possible on this issue in order to maximise support; critical mass I think is the phrase that has been used.
2) Look for various ways to challenge the situtation legally.
edited by: Fulub-le-Breton, Jun 03, 2008 - 03:50 PM
The FCPNM is not supposed to increase GDP, it is about creating educational equality, securing fair access to the media, ending forced assimilation, recognition of status, obtaining parity of esteem and other intangibles.
There are quality of life issues worth pursuing other than the pound in your pocket.
As for Coad. If the Government thought the Convention was mere 'fluff', they wouldn't be resisting at all costs Cornish attempts to gain inclusion.
I'm happy to give peace a chance... but I will not have sexual relations with you:p
Appreciated. It might be a waist of time, but its not their time they are wasting if they are not involved. Its just a pig headed approach to adopt I feel. There are many ways to try to help Cornwall.
Everyone agrees here that this is wrong and should be changed.
I see that's the idea, and as said that would be great. But how would any of that benefit the Cornish Economy and quality of life?
As said, I would love for this to be the case. I don't believe it will happen and I think there are other more likely ways of getting greater autonomy.
Im not sure how a man as clued up on these issues could have such confidence in a petition, with or without recognition. What was the unitary authority, 80,000?
Forgive my pessimism of such things
Sure, but I haven't seen evidence for that. Its a possible conclusion, there are alternatives. From my limited but increasing understanding its establishment apathy and disinterest rather than the sinister machinations so easily made.
Yes. Any kind of evidence, it doesn't even have to be conclusive.
I just don't see it anywhere, all I see is assumptions of Guilt and culpability, but no evidence.
Super, no problems, I salute them. Why then do they criticize and damage the 3rd option that's compatible with the first 2:
3) A long term and consistent political campaign towards greater autonomy.
(BTW I appreciate your supportive of 3 and playing the devils advocate)
Thanks
Mat
Freako Mbiko
Please Visit the Wonderful Continent of Kernow and, after that, check out my blogs:
Freako suggests its not deliberate policy, but mere "apathy and disinterest", that sees government lie to the Council of Europe, lie to Parliament and lie to the High Court in order to keep the Cornish out of the Convention.
Question 1. Freako, where is your evidence for stating that it is mere apathy or disinterest?
Question 2. Freako, why did government allow all and sundry into the Convention but then twice in two Compliance reports specifically name and target only the Cornish for exclusion? Did that arise from "apathy and disinterest"?
Question 3. If this was 'an accident' arising from "apathy and disinterest", why did government then say that attempts to include the Cornish in the Convention will be "strongly resisted"?
Readers should know that there is no governmnet "apathy and disinterst" on this issue. Gov are pulling out all the stops and working their socks off to keep the Cornish out of the Convention
I do not know what the reason is, it might be a conspiracy, it might be apathy, it might be something else all together. I think right now its apathy but I am very open to being convinced otherwise; My "fight" here is about truth and reason not personal pride
I am sure that the English government has lied to us about many things and for various reasons. These lies might be blatant, as with Iraq, or they may be subtle and hidden.
I think it is possible that the most hyperbolic conspiracy posited by the most radical Cornish Conspiracy Theorist is true, BUT, I will not simply believe it just because someone assures me it is so
I have a policy not to hold anything as true until I am justified in doing so.
Freako Mbiko
Please Visit the Wonderful Continent of Kernow and, after that, check out my blogs:
Agreed, but within the Cornish movement are those who see our resources as scarce and don't seem to want to tolerate other forms of activity. They see there as being competition for time and money and therefore attack all those who follow other paths as a waste (Strange when we consider that members of the CSP are elected councillors).
Great but how?
Well in the long run if it brings us closer to some form of autonomy....
Don't believe what will happen?
FCPNM status or recognition as a Duchy outside England?
We'll have to agree to disagree but the last signed petition calling devolution went to the top and was discussed at the highest levels apparently. If Cornwall had been the recognised homeland of a national minority who knows what the result would have been.
Possibly, but I feel differently. Again we'll have to agree to disagree.
"A consistent campaign"? Well yes that would be good but MK's plan for devolution has been sunk, they are on the verge of loosing all their elected district councillors and the constitutional convention seems rather lost at the best of times. All I can say is they need to do more.
The fact is that the Cornish movement is diverse and on some things we will never agree. We should accept this and move forward as opposed to dragging each other through the mud.
edited by: Fulub-le-Breton, Jun 03, 2008 - 06:09 PM
Man dies as car crashes off road
A driver from Plymouth dies when his car leaves the road and careers down an embankment in Cornwall.
Plans in gear for speedway track
Speedway could be coming back to Cornwall if a planning application for a track at Bodmin is accepted.
Rescued girl's parents at bedside
The parents of a French teenager in intensive care after nearly drowning off Cornwall are at her bedside.
Independent review team is named
Review of management at the Royal Cornwall Hospital's Trust to be lead by former nurse with 50 years NHS experience.
Charity hospices in £1m shortfall
Two hospices that care for thousands of terminally ill adults could be forced to close in a funding shortfall.
Man admits unrelated sex attacks
A man arrested in Cornwall admits sex offences and an attempted murder committed nearly a decade apart.
Death crash footballer has been jailed
Ex-Plymouth Argyle goalkeeper Luke McCormick is jailed for killing two children by dangerous driving.
Sanctuary in financial 'crisis'
A Cornish animal sanctuary, which is home to more than 50 horses, struggles to cover rising fuel and feed costs.
I would, however, be interested in the Mebyon Kernow view of this as to who applies the pressure and whether there is a component of constituency voting that would in its turn add to the pressure. It would appear to require a symbiotic relationship?
