Then they are intolerant, and they can eat my shorts.
Great but how?[/quote]
By trying a variety of means:
1) The Social: such as continuing cultural preservation groups.
2) The Eductaional: getting an agreed Cornish history/language taught in schools. Im not sure how you "teach culture" but if you can, then sure, that too.
3) The Legal: using whatever available legal means, those who feel they have a chance of legal victory should be supported and encouraged in this endeavour.
4) The Marketing: the disparet Cornish Nationalist movement has Zero marketing, to most people we are bumpkin terrorists. I still get the pith taken out of me for being in MK. This has to change to get any non Cornish support, which the numbers suggest are very needed.
5) The Party Polictial: Using votes to make change for the better in Cornwall.
So... I think 5 ways, for starters. Interestingly every procornish person I meet is behind one of those five ways in various senses, some very much.
But, we squabble, because there is no clarity and much less unity.
If the English want to subdue Cornish Nationalism all they need do is let us the various paths remain unconnected
I agree, there is always more to be done More support would be good to
Freako Mbiko
Please Visit the Wonderful Continent of Kernow and, after that, check out my blogs:
When Freakos put on the spot, he changes his tune.
At first he says this, "From my limited but increasing understanding its establishment apathy and disinterest rather than sinister machinations".
I then say "Freako, where is your evidence for stating that it is mere apathy or disinterest?"
And he immediately replies, " I suggest you read more slowly. I do not know what the reason is..."
Freako, you are a great one for asking questions, but not very good at answering them. Let me try again:
Question 1. Freako, where is your evidence for stating that it is mere apathy or disinterest?
Question 2. Freako, why did government allow all and sundry into the Convention but then twice in two Compliance reports specifically name and target only the Cornish for exclusion? Did that arise from "apathy and disinterest"?
Question 3. If this was 'an accident' arising from "apathy and disinterest", why did government then say that attempts to include the Cornish in the Convention will be "strongly resisted"?
Our 'Mr Reasonable' then says, "I think right now its apathy but I am very open to being convinced otherwise; My "fight" here is about truth and reason not personal pride."
'Very open to being convinced otherwise'? I think not. There appears to be no amount of evidence that could be placed in front of this guy that would make him acknowledge that government are actively and deliberately denying the Cornish access to Convention benefits.
Now Freako, if you would be so kind as to answer the three questions, you might be able to convince everyone that it is all down to 'apathy and disinterest'. After all, that is your clear agenda.
No, you're wrong. I have not changed my tune. I am saying that I do not know why, I have no significant evidence for either but I suspect it is establishment apathy.
Unless I am very much mistaken you will not find one spot where I contradict myself. Anyways.....
I dont have any pertinent evidence either way, so I am forced to accept just supposition and guesswork, but, nonetheless, I can make judgments. I use the following to make my judgments:
1) I feel that given any conspiracy requires the continued silence of exponentially many people into the future and, goping back decades into the past, the fact that there has been no whisleblower is a point in favor. This is the whsileblower argument.
2) I believe that the natural state of man is not evil. Thus I believe that to make men do evil things requires compelling motive. And from this must conclude that Cornwall and the Cornish issue is just not important enough to the English establishment to propagate the evil often accused.
3) Who Benefits? I dont see any clear victors of the Cornish exploitation apart from Prince Charles but bthe "conspiracy" cited required the collaboration of the rest of the establishment.
4) Governmental Moral Apathy
The people in big corporations, from the bottom to the top, may be on the whole good people. But Corporations as wholes, dont follow the same moral jib as the people in them. They follow things like shareholder satisfaction, goivernemnt compliance and other socio-economic attractors. The result is an amoral beast.
Its not evil, it may contain no evil doers, but it often performs evil deeds, as it were.
I think the same model applies to governments. Sure, some lawyer in whitehall may think, yep its a good case.... but then when its all calculated and processed by the system, the system rejects it as a possibility.
Maybe its too expenisve?
Maybe Spain has asked not to to prevent EU complications with the Basque. (That could be a conspiracy.... )
So I think that there might just not be the incentive to do the right thing, a National Moral Apathy.
This, for example, is the reason why we are not doing the right thing in Africa right now. The "cost" in non moral terms is too great.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, but, I do know that whatsoever it was the reasons and causes could be many. Is there the kind of evidence for this that could be expressed to me in a few lines or must I wade through reams and them just belive your assumptions?
Because they don't want trouble and hassle and time wasting from a handful of dissatisfied Cornish when they have some serious issus at home and abroad to contend with?
Because the cost of spilt would have zero benefit to the English taxpayer and thus, though unfortunate, it would seem an unfair bill for them to pay?
I don't have a clue, this are just assumptions. Just like yours seem to be. If you have good evidence it should be able to be expressed concisely. Do you? Have evidence that explains the above?
You could ask some people here about how I am prepared to change my tune when shown otherwise. Its happened a fair few times with the Cornish issues. But I wont change my tune just because an overwhelming weight of unsubstantiated assumption is presented.
Let me tell you a secret. Two years ago I made a bit of an a-hole of myself by getting into 911 conspiracies. The evidence is superoverwhelming in support of a conspiracy. But so is the evidence that its not. If you only look at one side, you end up looking like an a-hole
You do not entertain the possibility of alternatives.
Secret agendas... must be being part English
LOL
paranoid?
edited by: FreakoMbiko, Jun 03, 2008 - 09:20 PM
Freako Mbiko
Please Visit the Wonderful Continent of Kernow and, after that, check out my blogs:
Freako went along with the 9/11 'conspiracy'. That says it all.
In 1858, the Duchy said it was the government of Cornwall, that the Duke was effectively King of Cornwall and Cornwall was a territorial possession of the Duchy of Cornwall.
Since then, the legal position has not changed.
Yet today the Duchy, supported by the UK Government,says the Duchy was always a private estate.
Freako then says he can find no evidence of any 'conspiracy'.
One definition of conspiracy, "a secret plan to carry out an illegal or harmful act".
It is beyond doubt that a some point after 1858, the officers of the Duchy, with the support of members of the UK Governmemt, hatched a plan to portray the Duchy of Cornwall as a 'private estate'.
As the plan was never publicised, it was done in secret.
The plan contravened existing laws [1337 Charter and various other Acts of Parliament] and was, and is, illegal.
The action harmed the interests of many people in Cornwall.
As all the characteristics are present, it is natural that some people should label the plan a conspiracy.
Then, after pontificating at length on the Framework Convention, Freako states in relation to comments made by government in its Convention compliance reports, "I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about".
An absolute waste of space.
(Is he a twelve year old kid or summat? Might be one of those who continually vandalises wiki pages?)
The evidence is very compelling, as i discus here and here and my acknowledgement of my mistake here.
So I went through a process of investigation starting from initial evidence and then via more and contrary evidence and reasoning to the conclusion cited.
So thought you may "mock" the fact that I admit my mistaken inital conclusion I nonetheless, you dont have any comparable investigation to offer, all you appear to have is other peoples assumptions.
Bad wisdom my freind, bad wisdom.
Until you have eliminated the kind of possibilities presented in my previous reply to FLB or until you have evidence of how that wrong has been perpetuated by willful deception then frankly, you are even deserving of being a "(11 Truther".
If you say something is beyond doubt that means that it cannot be any other way. You use words you don't know the meaning of, they sound good when others use them, but you clearly don't know what terms like "doubt" means.
Evidence please of the plan and the fact it was "done in secret"
Then just ignore my posts
You don't contribute, you just attack and accuse.
Mat
Freako Mbiko
Please Visit the Wonderful Continent of Kernow and, after that, check out my blogs:
Freako, I think you got serious reality check problems.
Duchy constitutional entity to duchy private estate.
You want evidence that it happened, and evidence that it was done in secret!!!!!
Are you some kind of nut?
Look at the duchy website, it says the duchy is a private estate. In 1858 the duchy said it was a constitutional entity. Do you dispute this?
As for evidence of it being done in secret. As no documentation exists to say when the transformation occurred, and government and duchy both will not say when it happened, it must have been done in secret. Of course, if you wish to prove me wrong then you need to produce the document that announces the change to the public.
1. I have shown evidence that it happened. As you place doubt on the transformation happening, please produce evidence to prove that it never happened.
2. As you place doubt on the transformation being done in secret, please produce evidence of when it was announced to the public.
You don't really pay much attention and thought to what I say, I think, you assume I'm wrong and then try to prove I'm wrong.
[quote=sentinel]Are you some kind of nut?[quote=sentinel]
You wouldnt be the first person to think I'm a nut But Im very sane and level headed.
I don't dispute that there is a legitimate territorial dispute.
You admit there is no evidence now because it was done in secret. I cant dispute that with you.
If you want me to believe that something happened in top secret, so secret that there is zero evidence, then I cant argue with that. Nobody can. You win.
Not only do we have the best weather, we have the most impressive and successfu conspiracy against, us as well.
Without agreeing with your obvious core belief about 'politics', I must say Yes! Something that I left out of my previous response you have quoted, namely, the very necessary Cornish Constitutional Convention.
I suspect/hope that most Cornish nationalists would support MK as a matter of principle, but it needs to be a bit more transparent on how it intends to achieve the aims shown here especially in respect of paragraphs 3. & 4. Your item ‘2’, should never be an option – unless there is a serious disagreement with the existing ideology - because it would just split the already small vote.
There is also another potential course of action and that is: No overtly Nationalist Party but that the existing organisation reverts to being a pressure group and uses its energies to influence the activities of the ‘standard’ political groups to becoming Kernow-centric. This would also, I feel sure, increase its support and membership.
Mat, given your stated understanding of the Cornish situation, I find your confusion over this as rather strange. What would you consider (with a bit of brainstorming) were some fundamental rights that we are denied and from which we would derive a benefit by having these rights accommodated? You seem to concede that 'unfairness' exists, so what could replace this with 'fairness' and, as a consequence, improve the quality of life? What would improve my quality of life, is to concentrate on Cornish music, rather than these interminable discussions.
A very emphatic YES! This is the very basis of the Cornish Paradox and until we call a spade a spade, we should be aware that every time that we have to defend our position that we are living in a deliberate environment of attrition. Euphemisms and sound bites do not change anything. In fact, I would hold up the C24 message board (and others where Cornish issues, in contention, are involved) as a clear example of illustrating the presence of Cornish Genocide. Any pro-Cornish issue has to be defended, and proven, to the Nth degree, and the actions of authority is euphemised as apathy and disinterest. Any discussion on 'Cornishness' can be seen to be an overt attempt to negative and sterilise it as a concept, as credibility becomes fostered for multiple identities, in order to diminish the value of a core identity.
Not intended that you should. It was inserted more as a thinking aloud, but you might equally consider giving a personal response based on your core ideology. Who, for example, applies ‘the pressure’, and how?
Ah! I am not a conspiracy theorist.
Nor am I but there was a distinct constitutional change to the position of Cornwall, which acts as a boundary between de jure and de facto. Should be easy to determine, between the mid-1850s and 1888, don’t you agree? Why don’t you have a go? It is also impossible to ignore the unaccountable actions of the Judiciary (and Legislature?) in response to the challenges made to authority by the CSP and Cornwall2000.
This has been stated within this thread and they both carry the initials H.R.H. together with all the institutions that ‘protect’ them and provide them with an aura of credibility and respectability.
Perhaps you might like to describe this alternative ”political climate”?
I have elsewhere used ‘culture change’ within business enterprises as an analogy, where, for example “history is irrelevant”, Old is bad, new is good” etc., but we are talking here about the existence of the continuity of a people, not the bottom-line on some alien balance-sheet.
I most certainly do accept that, in general terms, there is ”no human deception”, which is why I blame TEAM-EIS, but individuals can fall in or out of that team by their declared/perceived stance on the issues.
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE!- The existence of divergent views occur because the lies and deception have a more profoundly negative, and contrived, consequence for the Cornish people than for anyone else within the UK.
I agree on all counts but not sure what "strong political tools" means in that context.
Yes that's another way. I think a multi pronged approach is best, as per my last post to FLB.
Other than the protection of identity and culture I don't see any rights that should be afforded to the Cornish over any other group, including the English. And Im not sure how rights can, on the ground, be used to protect identity and culture.
Good question.
I think all fundamental human rights are satisfied in Cornwall, so I guess the only remaining "rights" that might be satisfied is the "historical right" to be as we were. Im not even sure thats a right.
I can pick dozens of countries where there are ongoing rights abuses, Kernow isn't one of them
Yes it was and is unfair. as is the native Americans, the Aborigines, the gold rich cash poor people of Namibia and on and on....
A carefully planned, debated and voted for series of economic changes initiated by MK which form part of the path to greater autonomy, regional freedom and economic control.
And give Truro a Marina, but that's entirely selfish:P
Without being convinced of this, which I'm not close to being, I think we cant debate it I do not see it as genocide nor do I see why you would
As per my post to FBB, I think a multi-faceted cohesive approach. Legal, political, social, education, cultural and marketing.
You have a theory about an ongoing conspiracy to commit or support cultural genocide against the Cornish.
Its a conspiracy theory, na?
I have no dispute of anything about this account of Cornish History.
I am only interested in evidence of an ongoing conspiracy that is connected to the current establishment.
There appears to be none.
Can you prove its a conspiracy over apathy, stupidity, disinterest or some other force of politics?
No Jim, that doesn't convince me. We all know that the subject of the conspiracy is going to be the Duke, or he at least would be a key player, he might be greedy and opportunist, but, unless he has collaborators and you have evidence for this, I'm simply not going to accept it.
So there is human deception form the Dukes camp but not "generally"?
I am happy to agree with that if thats what your saying
Mat
Freako Mbiko
Please Visit the Wonderful Continent of Kernow and, after that, check out my blogs:
Isn't a key problem with the cornish movement that it seeks to be exclusive rather than inclusive, this is obvious in the discussions about makes some one cornish.
MK, and perhaps the cornish movement in gemeral, do not seem to understand that what makes political parties succesful is populism. If you are not a popular politician you don't get elected. Preaching to the converted is pointless.
IMO the cornish movement needs to reinvent itself as a whole into a unified organisaton that seeks to better the economic and social situation of all electors in cornwall, with one highly vocal (but unbreaded and gowned) central figure or pair.
Nationalist movements are invariably associated with single charsmatic leaders. Perhaps this is what the cornish movement needs to focus on finding a leader, but also a PR and marketing machine.
Has MK or other cornish movement elements ever requested political support and nouse from the likes of FF in Ireland and SNP, succesful political organisations with strong PR/marketing support?
If you have organisation and good PR/marketing you are a quarter their, the other 3/4 is leadership and charisma, where is the modern day cornish michale collins, che, wallace? And if you don't find one, the closest looking candidate needs to be sent to america or whereever to be fully trained in presenation and other political skills.
Oh and lets not forget money, you need money to fund political campaigns, so perhaps the cornish movements should stop trying to piss off business with its socialist mumbo jumbo vintage 1973.
Tiocfaidh ar La,
But I'm starting to think that it won't for us cornish, no unity, no leadership, but lots of factions and backbiting
The Bureaucracy needs to expand to meet the needs of the Bureaucracy
Independent review team is named
Review of management at the Royal Cornwall Hospital's Trust to be lead by former nurse with 50 years NHS experience.
Charity hospices in £1m shortfall
Two hospices that care for thousands of terminally ill adults could be forced to close in a funding shortfall.
Man admits unrelated sex attacks
A man arrested in Cornwall admits sex offences and an attempted murder committed nearly a decade apart.
Death crash footballer has been jailed
Ex-Plymouth Argyle goalkeeper Luke McCormick is jailed for killing two children by dangerous driving.
Sanctuary in financial 'crisis'
A Cornish animal sanctuary, which is home to more than 50 horses, struggles to cover rising fuel and feed costs.
Text service for the deaf grows
A service allowing deaf and speech impaired people to text emergency services is rolled out in Cornwall.
Court seizes hundreds of knives
More than 200 people are caught carrying knives into a court building in Cornwall in 2008.
Teenager dragged from rip current
A teenage girl is in intensive care after nearly drowning while swimming off St Ives in Cornwall.
