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Start ::  Cornwall24 Discussion ::  Cornish Language, Culture and History ::  THE PLACE OF DEATH!!!!
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THE PLACE OF DEATH!!!!

Nosdan Posted: 14.05.2008, 12:56

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Yeah but the placename evidence goes back to the 1500's when you would expect at few to know the language...

And then theres the testament of Polwhelt, about the coroners warrant a custom immemorial. Sounds better than a Folk story.

There must be some records, of suicides, back in the 16th century? What happened to them, where they were burried? How could I find out?

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(as maazed as a curlew)
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morvran Posted: 14.05.2008, 13:06

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Judging by the cognates, kevrang probably ought to be kevrank.


Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
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TheElvenLord Posted: 15.05.2008, 16:33

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Could Marth (as in Carn Marth) be Death or something?
Sounds close to Morts (Fr) somewhat.

TEL

Everything is impossible until it is not.
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Mike Posted: 15.05.2008, 16:48

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Carn Marth = possibly Horses Tor/Crag
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marhak Posted: 16.05.2008, 08:30

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All the early records show it as Carnmargh so, yes: margh, "horse" or possibly Margh (early Cornish: March) as a personal name.
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Abieuan Posted: 16.05.2008, 23:37

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I think the Breton word for death is "maro".

The Scottish Gàidhlig word for dead is "marbh" (pronounced marv).
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morvran Posted: 17.05.2008, 00:55

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AbieuanI think the Breton word for death is "maro".


No that's "dead". The bony fellow who talks LIKE THIS is "Ankou".

QuoteThe Scottish Gàidhlig word for dead is "marbh" (pronounced marv).


Again "dead" and also the verb "to kill", Mharbh mi a' chaora "I killed the sheep". The word corresponding to C "ankow", B "ankou", W "angau" is eug (also with the same meaning but a different word, bàs).

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DenAnkoth Posted: 11.06.2008, 18:57

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I have found this thread very interesting. For what it's worth, I looked at a number of maps online, and it would appear that the meeting point of the four shires corresponds to a point on the modern A3047 where the road meets the footpath that backs onto Scorrier Close. However, only about 80 metres SW along the A3047, you come to the northern point of an equalateral triangle of land now occupied almost entirely by the Crossroads Hotel. On the 1908 map which I viewed on old-maps.co.uk, this triangle of land appears to be marked by stones, two along its NE boundary, and several seemingly close together at its SW corner. The SE corner is separated from the rest by the Great Western Railway. The Crossroads Hotel itself claims to sit on the site of the meeting place of the four ancient shires. Maybe this is Kevrangow. It looks like the old Radnor Road continued across the A3047, forming the southern boundary of the triangle, and that it was at this intersection (the original crossroads) where the shires met. The "Stones" marked at this point on the 1908 map could then have been the markers of the central meeting point.


So walk the path to freedom true
And be you not distracted by
Oppressors from the East by whom
Your treasures are extracted dry
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Mike Posted: 11.06.2008, 21:56

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Interesting stuff, ol'man, You've got me looking on the old maps.
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DenAnkoth Posted: 11.06.2008, 22:05

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It's addictive! I was doing some research on the kevrangow, and came across this discussion when I googled a few specific terms. I was already a registered user of Cornwall24, so I thought I may as well put in my tuppeny worth. I don't often contribute. You wouldn't happen to know anything about the origin of the original six kevrang names would you? I've just started a new thread asking for information about the name of Kerrier/Keryer.


So walk the path to freedom true
And be you not distracted by
Oppressors from the East by whom
Your treasures are extracted dry
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Nosdan Posted: 12.06.2008, 08:04

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I'm still not so sure that this place is purely named after the meeting of Keverangow... That quote from polwhele glossary about Coroners warrant and self murderers just seems to fit the place so well, and is in line with common practices of the time.

Its a shame the hotel is built on the site, a dig would have proved it... icon_biggrin

Mar vedhow avel gelvinek
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DenAnkoth Posted: 12.06.2008, 12:31

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I do find the kevrangow explanation convincing. On the g/k debate, MacBain's Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic language has:

Quotecòmhrag

a conflict, Irish cómhrac, Early Irish comrac, battle, Old Irish comracc, meeting, Welsh cyfrang, rencounter, *kom-ranko-; root renk, assemble; Lithuanian rìnkti, assemble, surinkìmas, assembly.


The Celtic database of the Indo-European Etymological Dictionary (the IEED) at indo-european.nl has:

QuoteProto-Celtic: *kom-fro-ank-o- 'meet, fight' [Verb]

Old Irish: con-ric 'meet'

Middle Welsh: kyfreing, kyfrang [3s Pres.] 'meet, fight' (GPC cyfrengi)


Compare also, from IEED:

QuoteProto-Celtic: *fro-ank-o- 'reach' [Verb]

Old Irish: ro-ic, -ric 'reach'

Middle Welsh: renghi, rynghu 'reach, satisfy, please' (GPC rhyngu, rhangu, rhengi)

Middle Breton: ranquout, rencout 'must'


and:

QuoteProto-Celtic: *ank-o- 'reach' [Verb]

Old Irish: -ic, do-ic 'come'; -ti´ [subj.]; ta´nicc [pret.], ro-ic 'reach'; -ri´cht [pret.pass.], con-ic -'can', etc.

Middle Welsh: rynghu 'reach' from *fro-ank-, reingk [3sg pres.]

Middle Breton: renc, rencq 'reaches'

Proto-Indo-European: *hnek'- [3sg pres.]

Page in Pokorny: 316-318

IE cognates: Skt. as´no´ti 'reaches', Lat. nanciscor


It would seem that Cornish should be kevrank, but that maybe identification with the Welsh changed it to kevrang. Naturally, place names would be expected to preserve the older pronounciations.

The original "Pass of the Cantons" would also indicate that this is the case.





edited by: DenAnkoth, Jun 12, 2008 - 12:48 PM


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And be you not distracted by
Oppressors from the East by whom
Your treasures are extracted dry
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DenAnkoth Posted: 12.06.2008, 13:59

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It should be added that the original sense was probably "reaching forward together" *kom- "together" *fro- "forward" *ank-o- "reaching". The later connotation of a fight or hostile encounter may have been a reference to the purpose of the "coming together", i.e. the kevrang was originally a meeting place for men fit to fight an enemy. The Aswa Kevrangow at Skorria doesn't have to imply hostilities between the various cantons of Kernow; but simply the place where an inhabitant of one of the four cantons could pass to any of the other three.


So walk the path to freedom true
And be you not distracted by
Oppressors from the East by whom
Your treasures are extracted dry
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