Beach Ices at Praa Sands
Ice meeting the sand at the base of the low cliff behind Praa Sands Beach, West Cornwall. 6th January 2009....
Icicles at Trewellard Bottoms
Water seeping through a wall is turned to icicles, ate Trewellard Bottoms, where Geevor Mine meets the sea....
Winter Sunset at Levant
A late afternoon scene, at Levant Mine, West Cornwall. 7th January 2009....
Winter at Levant
The old electricity generator building, at Levant Mine, West Cornwall, during the recent cold snap. 7th Jnauary 2009....
I read somewhere once that no country in the "western world" was any more than 4 meals away from rebellion.(I might be wrong about the exact number, but it was not very large)Given the strong possibility of coming food and fuel shortages, do you really think that those in power would not start to put draconian measures in place to prevent civil unrest. If a scapegoat can be found, do you think that they would hesitate to use it. The rise of far right "political" parties throughout Europe, that is happening now, would be saying the very things that the population would want to hear. Your greater communication would be used to increase the fears of ordinary people.
Unfortunately, I can see the required sequences. Some of the elements are already in place.
The "developed" world is just at risk as the "developing" world. At least the despots of the "developing" world are honest in their despotism
Agreed, and that is why events such as the aftermath of the Prayer book rebel ion should never be forgotten, or trivialized. They should all be remembered, and taught to our children, as a reminder that these things happen. and unless we are very careful, they will happen again.
To get back to my original point, do you now agree with me on my take regarding ethnic cleansing, that no single event is any less reprehensible than any other?
Kernow Kensa!
Our day will come!
"Everyone has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."
No I don't There are many things that need to get taken into account.
1) For example, the "Cornish Holocaust" took place at a time when world wide the liberties and rights of everyone were close to null. We, as a Civilization, were just not as Civilized 450 years ago as 50 years ago.
That's not really disputable, you can pick many criteria to compare and contrast and see the immense differences, eg Suffrage
So that in part makes the Nazi crimes more horrific; the fact they were commited by a modern industrial "democracy".
2)There is also the mass intention of the Nazi's plans, the exterminations were planned and manitained consistently for years. It was a definite project. And the same cant be said of the "Cornish Holocaust", assuming the web refrences and wiki I have been reading are accurate.
3)The "Cornish Holocaust" was in reaction to a series of rebellions by the people of Cornwall (and Devon?). I think the people of Cornwall at the time had every right to take the fight to the English, as they did, but this fact cant be omitted when comparing it with the Holocaust of the Jews.
The Jews hadn't been marching on Berlin with the aim for aggression prior to the Nazis.
4)Culprits. It strikes me that the atrocities in Cornwall were not committed by the Crown (The king was a boy) but by the Church and the Earl of Summerset and were possible because of power vacuume. The same cant be said of the Nazis; the leaders planned and initiated it themselves.
5) Method and Scale. There have been countless butcheries in England, Cornwall and the world over throught history. What happened to the Jews was radically different in Method and Scale.
History is very bloody and is full of attrocities but I think most people on the planet would agree that the closer you are to the present the more evil those attricties are considered.
So, I think that there are fundamental differences
I must say, in "researching" the "Cornish Holocaust" today, its pretty fascinating/relevant and I can see very much why the absence of this from Cornish schools causes such complaint. It should be taught.
What would you say is the best reference/history of this so I can check it out some more?
Finally, in terms of Forgiveness, it seems that it was the Church who was the cause, not the wider English establishment. And the Church has apologized for this shameful act.
What more do you want, other than the acceptance and teaching of this History, to be able to forgive and move on?
Good debate
Mat
*There is no God. There is No Soul. There is no Heaven. This is our only life; it is rare and special and precious. Nothing is important; except the happiness of me and the happiness of all others.*
Hey, I think Im Cornish, I have little concern for what the "unable to think" think I am
*There is no God. There is No Soul. There is no Heaven. This is our only life; it is rare and special and precious. Nothing is important; except the happiness of me and the happiness of all others.*
Death was still death, fear and terror were still fear and terror. Surly, part of the reason we are now so "civilised", is because of the reaction to such atrocities. Is a brutal murder less "wrong" when it is carried out by a Brazilian bushman in his "backyard", rather than an Oxford don in his?
If we are to start "making excuses", and "justifying" atrocities on the grounds of the perpetrators being less civilised than some set standard, in this case us, then where does it end? Is the genocide in Rwanda to be excused because they were/are less civilised than us?
You can not be suggesting that it is less abhorrent to kill those who have no vote than those who have? It is always possible to pick differences, but the similarities should surly override any of them, they were/are all human beings.
I disagree, I think what horrifies most people is the fact that it is so easy to imagine themselves on one or other "sides" of such an atrocity, because it is still within "living" memory. It was committed by people like us, on people like us. But is that not somewhat selfish in outlook? The mere fact that we are able to distance ourselves from atrocious events in the past, or even by the fact that it occurred in a so called third world country, does not make the event any less "bad"
Again, I have to disagree. Just because one event was "less" well planned than another does not change it's effects, or lessen its abhorrence.
Firstly, due to it being more recent, we have a much better idea of the mindset of the perpetrators, it also helps that they lost or we would probably not even have heard of the holocaust. The Nazis believed that the Jews were the root cause of the problems they faced, they were blamed for the harsh treatment Germany received following their "defeat" in the first world war, and the Versailles treaty etc. Whilst it is easy for us to say that this was just Hitler and his cronies using the Jews as scapegoats for all the ills that Germany faced, the fact is that the vast majority of the German people believed it (it is unfortunate that some feel the same way now). So from a 30's/40's German perspective, the Jews had been "marching" on Berlin, they were the aggressor.
Did not Hitler come to power because of a power vacuum in Germany? The crown in England at the time was the Church, (Henry VIII, "the Church is what I say it is" or something like that) The church, the earl of Somerset etc, were the English establishment, the fact that the head of that establishment was a young boy is an irrelavence. There is an argument that Hitler had very little to do with the "final solution", he, in effect, gave a problem to his cronies, his establishment, to solve, and let them get on with it. I do not see much of a difference there.
Scale, I do not know the percentage of the worlds Jewish population that the Nazis exterminated, but following the Prayer book rebellion, the English establishment killed an estimated 11% of the Cornish population. Put that in perspective, go into an average school class of thirty pupils, and shoot 3 of them, not take them outside and do it, but do it there in front of their classmates, and then leave them there for those same classmates to bury.
Method, Gassing, shooting, starving, compared to throat slitting, being hung in your own doorway, the end result is the same, death. The difference between the two, could possibly be that the Nazis did their killing, mostly, in a hands off fashion, whereas the English establishment, or those working for them, did their killing in a very hands on way, a way that they must have taken a sick pleasure in.
As I said before, the reason "modern" atrocities are considered by some to be worse, is due to the thought that "I" could have been involved. The "nearer" "I" am to such an event, the worse "I" feel. Whilst I agree that it could be argued that that is the only way to judge the "degree" of an atrocity, it is really only a judgement based on self interest. Is it not more honest to admit that any such atrocity is just that, an atrocity, and to be abhorred and reviled, and guarded against, no matter how removed we are from it.
We agree.
I am not the best person to ask, but I would suggest you ask someone like marhak, who I am sure could give you a few pointers.
Personally, I would have said that the church and the rest of the establishment, at the time were much the same, were each other. As for the Church apologising, I thought that it was only the Bishop of Truro, Bishop Bill, who apologised, ish, and not "the Church". For me an apology, whilst nice, is not the point, it is the acknowledgement that it was done, and why, and the acceptance that it was wrong, that is what the Church and the establishment should be giving. For with that there is less likelihood of similar happening in the future. Then I can Forgive, for until then, forgiveness is an empty gesture, in my opinion.
I try.
Kernow Kensa!
Our day will come!
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There are many things that need to get taken into account.
