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	Congratulations Ireland!
truru	Posted: 07.09.2008, 16:26
registered: May. 2006 Posts: 53 Status: offline last visit: 20.11.08	Bonniedundee QuoteThat being said I think it good that the Irish have done this. The undemocratic nature of the EU is a problem, but it is the national governments that like it that way, as a "democratic" EU leadership would be a potential source of conflict with national governments. It couldn't be democratic, it is just too big. Is the USA a democracy?


Bonniedundee	Posted: 08.09.2008, 07:10
registered: Aug. 2008 Posts: 169 Status: offline last visit: 15.10.08	Nope, the UK isn't even one. They obviously have some popular input but it doesn't mean they are really democratic. Mass democracy is an oxymoron as John Papworth accurately pointed out.


Taran	Posted: 08.09.2008, 09:52
registered: Jun. 2007 Posts: 305 Status: offline last visit: 20.11.08	I couldn't agree more. The term democracy is used rather loosely in 'The West'. It is used to mean the opportunity every few years to select a political party to run the nation state. It is not representative of, nor is it responsive to, the will of the people. There is no repeal of elected representatives and there is no way of making them responsive to the wishes of the electorate except through the vague notion that if they stray too far from popularity they may not get re-elected, although their likelyhood of reelection is more closely related to the popularity of their political party than their individual effectiveness. Also a true democracy relies upon the electorate being able to make rational and informed choices. This is virtually impossible as the media controls the presentation of 'fact'. Large swathes of this media are controlled by individual proprietors like Murdoch. Political pressure is also brought heavily to bear upon the television by 'the state' (MI5 vetting BBC staff and reporting). http://www.bild...g/mi5bbc.htm This means that the presentation of information is controlled by those with a political axe to grind. By controlling the presentation of information they can also influence opinion. In the past the Murdoch rag 'The Sun' has had a disproportionate impact on the outcome of general elections. The 'democratic' countries present poor examples of 'democracy'. Americas federal government could be held up as an example of a corporate plutocracy, a prerequisite for senatorship is to be fabulously wealthy and have the backing of BIG business. In the US and UK the political differences between the parties is now largely a matter of tinkering with taxation. Policy is also controlled by the party elite rather than through the party itself. This is particularly the case with the Conservative party, but in recent years the Labour party have moved to a similar structure to present a 'unified face' at conference. Good for presentation to the media, but bad for democracy. edited by: Taran, Sep 08, 2008 - 09:53 AM


Fulub-le-Breton	Posted: 23.09.2008, 17:31
registered: Sep. 2004 Posts: 4528 Status: online	Your average UKIP foot soldier probably doesn't know who are the big players behind the eurosceptic movement, they are just happy with the xenophobia and British nationalist angle. QuoteDid neo-cons from the United States fund the campaign in Ireland to reject the Lisbon Treaty? Accusations to that effect are widespread — particularly given the business contacts of a leading group in the “no” camp. The words were clear: “Europe has powerful enemies on the other side of the Atlantic, gifted with considerable financial means.” The speaker was France’s Europe Minister Jean-Pierre Jouyet, addressing a pro-European rally in Lyon at the weekend. He was putting the blame for the Irish rejection of the Lisbon Treaty on some surprising shoulders: neoconservatives in the United States. “The role of the American neocons was very important in the victory of the ‘no,’” he said. A voice of paranoia from old Europe? Perhaps. But the allegations are not exactly new. Those campaigning for a “yes” vote in the Irish referendum on June 12 had made similar suggestions in the run up to the vote. One of the most powerful groups campaigning against the treaty was Libertas, which describes itself as a “new European movement dedicated to campaigning for greater democratic accountability and transparency in the institutions of the EU.” The group had said that its main gripe with the Lisbon Treaty had been that it was anti-democratic and could undermine Irish business interests. Libertas claimed it spent €1.3 million on its campaign, though its opponents speculate the total might be even higher. In contrast, the ruling Fianna Fail party was estimated to have spent around €700,000 on its “yes” campaign. There has been much speculation about where exactly the Libertas funding came from. The group’s founder Declan Ganley is an Irish millionaire who is also CEO of Rivada Networks, a telecommunications company which has worked with the US military. The company’s Web site says that it is a “leading designer, integrator and operator of public safety communications and information technology networks for homeland security forces and first responders.” A member of the center-right Fine Gael party, Lucinda Creighton, said before the referendum that the businesses of Ganley and Ulick McEvaddy, an aviation millionaire who was also involved in the “no” campaign, were “heavily dependent on contracts from the US State Department, the Pentagon and US government agencies.” She went on to say: “These men are a lot less concerned about Irish sovereignty than they are about the potential hit to their own personal business interests.” However, Ganley rejected any allegation that US funding was behind his campaign. Before the referendum he told the Irish Independent newspaper: “I am funding it and so are a lot of other people. We have a donations facility online. .. There are some wonderful people that are stepping forward and writing checks.” However, Libertas were forced to admit in the course of the campaign that many of its staff members were on Rivada’s payroll. The “yes” campaign has since urged the group to make its donors and accounts public and has expressed skepticism that Libertas could have raised so much money within Ireland alone. Comments from a controversial former US diplomat before the referendum have added fuel to the conspiracy theory. John Bolton, the former US ambassador to the United Nations, was in Dublin to deliver a speech on trans-Atlantic relations a week before the vote. He warned that the treaty could “undercut NATO,” something that would be a “huge mistake.” According to Bolton, known for being one of Washington’s most outspoken hawks, if the EU had its own military capability people will think NATO redundant and that Europeans “can take care of their own defense.” While Ireland is not a member of NATO one of the concerns before the vote was that the treaty could compromise the country’s long-standing military neutrality. Other doubts that arose related to Ireland’s low taxation rate and its ban on abortion. The “yes” campaign tried but never managed to counter these arguments effectively. In the end Ireland rejected the Lisbon Treaty by 53.4 percent to 46.6 percent on June 13. A result that has since thrown the European Union into disarray. There has been talk of a two-speed Europe or even of kicking Ireland out of the EU if it were to reject a second referendum. Nevertheless, the latest poll on opinion within Europe shows that Ireland is in fact still the most resolutely pro-European country in the EU. The latest Eurobarometer survey, conducted in April and May, showed that Ireland had a more positive opinion of the EU than every other member state apart from Romania, with 65 percent viewing the union positively, well above the average of 48 percent. And Ireland topped the list of countries which believed they had benefited from EU membership; 82 percent of Irish voters believed Ireland had benefited, compared to an EU average of 54 percent. There is no doubt that Ireland has done well out of EU membership, although other factors such as low taxation, high investment in education and a record of good labor relations, also helped fuel the period of sustained growth. According to figures released by Eurostat on Tuesday, in 2007 Ireland had the second-highest gross domestic product (GDP) per capita in Europe — almost one and a half times the EU’s average. The Cornish Democrat The Breton Connection


ilovehelston	Posted: 23.09.2008, 21:17
registered: Mar. 2008 Posts: 972 Status: offline last visit: 11.11.08	Fulub-le-BretonYour average UKIP foot soldier probably doesn't know who are the big players behind the eurosceptic movement, they are just happy with the xenophobia and British nationalist angle. QuoteDid neo-cons from the United States fund the campaign in Ireland to reject the Lisbon Treaty? Accusations to that effect are widespread — particularly given the business contacts of a leading group in the “no” camp. The words were clear: “Europe has powerful enemies on the other side of the Atlantic, gifted with considerable financial means.” The speaker was France’s Europe Minister Jean-Pierre Jouyet, addressing a pro-European rally in Lyon at the weekend. He was putting the blame for the Irish rejection of the Lisbon Treaty on some surprising shoulders: neoconservatives in the United States. “The role of the American neocons was very important in the victory of the ‘no,’” he said. A voice of paranoia from old Europe? Perhaps. But the allegations are not exactly new. Those campaigning for a “yes” vote in the Irish referendum on June 12 had made similar suggestions in the run up to the vote. One of the most powerful groups campaigning against the treaty was Libertas, which describes itself as a “new European movement dedicated to campaigning for greater democratic accountability and transparency in the institutions of the EU.” The group had said that its main gripe with the Lisbon Treaty had been that it was anti-democratic and could undermine Irish business interests. Libertas claimed it spent €1.3 million on its campaign, though its opponents speculate the total might be even higher. In contrast, the ruling Fianna Fail party was estimated to have spent around €700,000 on its “yes” campaign. There has been much speculation about where exactly the Libertas funding came from. The group’s founder Declan Ganley is an Irish millionaire who is also CEO of Rivada Networks, a telecommunications company which has worked with the US military. The company’s Web site says that it is a “leading designer, integrator and operator of public safety communications and information technology networks for homeland security forces and first responders.” A member of the center-right Fine Gael party, Lucinda Creighton, said before the referendum that the businesses of Ganley and Ulick McEvaddy, an aviation millionaire who was also involved in the “no” campaign, were “heavily dependent on contracts from the US State Department, the Pentagon and US government agencies.” She went on to say: “These men are a lot less concerned about Irish sovereignty than they are about the potential hit to their own personal business interests.” However, Ganley rejected any allegation that US funding was behind his campaign. Before the referendum he told the Irish Independent newspaper: “I am funding it and so are a lot of other people. We have a donations facility online. .. There are some wonderful people that are stepping forward and writing checks.” However, Libertas were forced to admit in the course of the campaign that many of its staff members were on Rivada’s payroll. The “yes” campaign has since urged the group to make its donors and accounts public and has expressed skepticism that Libertas could have raised so much money within Ireland alone. Comments from a controversial former US diplomat before the referendum have added fuel to the conspiracy theory. John Bolton, the former US ambassador to the United Nations, was in Dublin to deliver a speech on trans-Atlantic relations a week before the vote. He warned that the treaty could “undercut NATO,” something that would be a “huge mistake.” According to Bolton, known for being one of Washington’s most outspoken hawks, if the EU had its own military capability people will think NATO redundant and that Europeans “can take care of their own defense.” While Ireland is not a member of NATO one of the concerns before the vote was that the treaty could compromise the country’s long-standing military neutrality. Other doubts that arose related to Ireland’s low taxation rate and its ban on abortion. The “yes” campaign tried but never managed to counter these arguments effectively. In the end Ireland rejected the Lisbon Treaty by 53.4 percent to 46.6 percent on June 13. A result that has since thrown the European Union into disarray. There has been talk of a two-speed Europe or even of kicking Ireland out of the EU if it were to reject a second referendum. Nevertheless, the latest poll on opinion within Europe shows that Ireland is in fact still the most resolutely pro-European country in the EU. The latest Eurobarometer survey, conducted in April and May, showed that Ireland had a more positive opinion of the EU than every other member state apart from Romania, with 65 percent viewing the union positively, well above the average of 48 percent. And Ireland topped the list of countries which believed they had benefited from EU membership; 82 percent of Irish voters believed Ireland had benefited, compared to an EU average of 54 percent. There is no doubt that Ireland has done well out of EU membership, although other factors such as low taxation, high investment in education and a record of good labor relations, also helped fuel the period of sustained growth. According to figures released by Eurostat on Tuesday, in 2007 Ireland had the second-highest gross domestic product (GDP) per capita in Europe — almost one and a half times the EU’s average. Explain Sinn Fein then


Fulub-le-Breton	Posted: 24.09.2008, 14:13
registered: Sep. 2004 Posts: 4528 Status: online	ilovehelston Fulub-le-BretonYour average UKIP foot soldier probably doesn't know who are the big players behind the eurosceptic movement, they are just happy with the xenophobia and British nationalist angle. QuoteDid neo-cons from the United States fund the campaign in Ireland to reject the Lisbon Treaty? Accusations to that effect are widespread — particularly given the business contacts of a leading group in the “no” camp. The words were clear: “Europe has powerful enemies on the other side of the Atlantic, gifted with considerable financial means.” The speaker was France’s Europe Minister Jean-Pierre Jouyet, addressing a pro-European rally in Lyon at the weekend. He was putting the blame for the Irish rejection of the Lisbon Treaty on some surprising shoulders: neoconservatives in the United States. “The role of the American neocons was very important in the victory of the ‘no,’” he said. A voice of paranoia from old Europe? Perhaps. But the allegations are not exactly new. Those campaigning for a “yes” vote in the Irish referendum on June 12 had made similar suggestions in the run up to the vote. One of the most powerful groups campaigning against the treaty was Libertas, which describes itself as a “new European movement dedicated to campaigning for greater democratic accountability and transparency in the institutions of the EU.” The group had said that its main gripe with the Lisbon Treaty had been that it was anti-democratic and could undermine Irish business interests. Libertas claimed it spent €1.3 million on its campaign, though its opponents speculate the total might be even higher. In contrast, the ruling Fianna Fail party was estimated to have spent around €700,000 on its “yes” campaign. There has been much speculation about where exactly the Libertas funding came from. The group’s founder Declan Ganley is an Irish millionaire who is also CEO of Rivada Networks, a telecommunications company which has worked with the US military. The company’s Web site says that it is a “leading designer, integrator and operator of public safety communications and information technology networks for homeland security forces and first responders.” A member of the center-right Fine Gael party, Lucinda Creighton, said before the referendum that the businesses of Ganley and Ulick McEvaddy, an aviation millionaire who was also involved in the “no” campaign, were “heavily dependent on contracts from the US State Department, the Pentagon and US government agencies.” She went on to say: “These men are a lot less concerned about Irish sovereignty than they are about the potential hit to their own personal business interests.” However, Ganley rejected any allegation that US funding was behind his campaign. Before the referendum he told the Irish Independent newspaper: “I am funding it and so are a lot of other people. We have a donations facility online. .. There are some wonderful people that are stepping forward and writing checks.” However, Libertas were forced to admit in the course of the campaign that many of its staff members were on Rivada’s payroll. The “yes” campaign has since urged the group to make its donors and accounts public and has expressed skepticism that Libertas could have raised so much money within Ireland alone. Comments from a controversial former US diplomat before the referendum have added fuel to the conspiracy theory. John Bolton, the former US ambassador to the United Nations, was in Dublin to deliver a speech on trans-Atlantic relations a week before the vote. He warned that the treaty could “undercut NATO,” something that would be a “huge mistake.” According to Bolton, known for being one of Washington’s most outspoken hawks, if the EU had its own military capability people will think NATO redundant and that Europeans “can take care of their own defense.” While Ireland is not a member of NATO one of the concerns before the vote was that the treaty could compromise the country’s long-standing military neutrality. Other doubts that arose related to Ireland’s low taxation rate and its ban on abortion. The “yes” campaign tried but never managed to counter these arguments effectively. In the end Ireland rejected the Lisbon Treaty by 53.4 percent to 46.6 percent on June 13. A result that has since thrown the European Union into disarray. There has been talk of a two-speed Europe or even of kicking Ireland out of the EU if it were to reject a second referendum. Nevertheless, the latest poll on opinion within Europe shows that Ireland is in fact still the most resolutely pro-European country in the EU. The latest Eurobarometer survey, conducted in April and May, showed that Ireland had a more positive opinion of the EU than every other member state apart from Romania, with 65 percent viewing the union positively, well above the average of 48 percent. And Ireland topped the list of countries which believed they had benefited from EU membership; 82 percent of Irish voters believed Ireland had benefited, compared to an EU average of 54 percent. There is no doubt that Ireland has done well out of EU membership, although other factors such as low taxation, high investment in education and a record of good labor relations, also helped fuel the period of sustained growth. According to figures released by Eurostat on Tuesday, in 2007 Ireland had the second-highest gross domestic product (GDP) per capita in Europe — almost one and a half times the EU’s average. Explain Sinn Fein then One among many. The article above however looks more explicitly at europhobe puppets like you and the people who are pulling your strings The Cornish Democrat The Breton Connection


DTresaw	Posted: 25.09.2008, 12:37
registered: Jul. 2008 Posts: 34 Status: offline last visit: 03.10.08	I expect Ireland will be encouraged to have another referendum and another until the EU get the result they want. As the UK is a net contributor what the hell do we actually get out of membership?? The joy of propping up yet another fubar Eastern European economy I believe.


ilovehelston	Posted: 27.09.2008, 19:42
registered: Mar. 2008 Posts: 972 Status: offline last visit: 11.11.08	No, the only people who are pulling our strings are people who want Britain to be indepdenant and free! Which is what it should be!

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