When I explain, over and over as I must, that AT are the main cause of the split in the language movement, I'm accused (over and over) of lying. I'll therefore make a series of statements which I believe in good faith to be true -- in most cases I have or have seen documentary evidence. I'll then invite the AT fans here to rate each one as true or false. Where they disagree, I'd like them to explain their reasons.
So here we go :
1. Prior to 1987 the language movement was united (aside perhaps from a very few Late Cornish supporters) -- TRUE/FALSE ?
2. The Language Board had been established by the Gorsedh and FOCS to take over responsibility for the language revival. It was therefore the legitimate governing body for the language. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
3. The Language Fellowship was a membership organisation to which nearly everyone seriously interested in the Revival at that time belonged. It was open to all on payment of a small annual subscription. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
4. Its membership then included many who later opposed KK, inter alia, R. & D. Chubb, L. Climo, P.A.S. Pool, R & A. Jenkin, Rod Lyon etc. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
5. At this time Agan Tavas was a small exclusive club for fluent speakers, most if not all of whom were also members of the Language Fellowship -- TRUE/FALSE ?
6. The members of the Language Board who voted for KK had been elected a year or two earlier by the members of the Language Fellowship, and this election was a fair one. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
7. Ken George published "The Spelling & Pronunciation of Revived Cornish" towards the end of 1986, in which as a result of his previous researches for a doctorate, he proposed that UC be replaced by a new orthography, later to be called Kernewek Kemmyn -- TRUE/FALSE ?
8. There followed several months of discussion during which Ken's proposals were widely debated within the language community -- TRUE/FALSE ?
9. In autumn 1987 the Language Board met and agreed to change from UC to KK over the next few years, continuing exams in UC while there was demand. Only the late Richard Jenkin voted against. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
10. The great majority of Cornish users/learners took up KK enthusiastically. There was immediate demand for materials, and the change-over was quicker than had been anticipated. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
11. All of the people mentioned in (4) above remained members of the Language Fellowship, as did others (a small minority) who were opposed to KK -- TRUE/FALSE ?
12. A year or two after the decision to adopt KK, the Language Board was re-elected by the members of the Fellowship. This election was fair. All the Board members who stood again were re-elected apart from Richard Jenkin. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
13. This can be seen as a vote of confidence in the Language Board by the Fellowship membership, and as support for the change to KK -- TRUE/FALSE ?
14. Membership of the Language Fellowship is and always has been open to anyone on payment of a small annual subscription. If the Fellowship membership was unrepresentative of the movement as a whole, anti-KK supporters had ample time to recruit more support for their POV -- TRUE/FALSE ?
15. This did not happen and has not happened down to the present day. Fellowship members remain strongly in favour of KK (e.g. Kowethas Survey 2005) -- TRUE/FALSE ?
16. As a result, the Language Board members elected by the Fellowship membership over the years have continued their support for KK (and 'legacy' support for UC) -- TRUE/FALSE ?
17. Agan Tavas was re-created as a society for people opposed to KK (whereas the Language fellowship remained open to all) -- TRUE/FALSE ?
18. Agan Tavas, and several of it's prominent members have persistently campaigned against KK and the legitimacy of the Language Board, loudly and publically, and continue to do so. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
19. As a consequence, the language movement is perceived as being split, especially from the outside. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
20. This 'split' was seized upon by the government as an excuse for delaying funding for the Cornish Language. For setting up the "Partnership", and for sidelining the Language Board. That is replacing a native democratic institution by a quango of mostly non-Cornish speakers. -- TRUE/FALSE ?
21. The antics of AT members (and one or two Late Cornish supporters) are therefore largely to blame for the mess we're currently in. They set their own personal animosities above the views of most Cornish speakers and the unity of the movement as a whole. They engineered the split, and institutionalised it by setting up the 'new' Agan Tavas. They have worked tirelessly to ensure that reconciliation is impossible (just look at their posts here!). And whether they realise it or not, they have played straight into the hands of those opposed to the Cornish Language and Cornish identity -- TRUE/FALSE ?
Please show where I have my facts or logic wrong. (Pictures of baboons bottoms will be understood to imply total agreement with the above).
edited by: morvran, Aug 29, 2008 - 03:08 PM
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Why should a baboon's bottom be taken this way? What on Earth has that got to do with the thread subject? Perhaps, Stephen will offer a pearl of wisdom here.
The trouble is Professor Nobrain, you don't know the difference between truth and fiction, even if they dropped on your head. When one bears in mind the lies and deceipt that you have peddled consistently on this forum, there is no wonder that there has been so little response to your initiative on this thread.
Here is some advice for you, I hope you will take it without recourse to hard-done by bleating:
Don't try to be 'holier than thou', a halo doesn't suit your character.
Hunlef - all the points that Morvran makes above seem to me pretty truthful. Were you around in 1986 and involved with the language?
Can you therefore dispute any of these points?
It seems to me that when facts are put before some people that they respond by personal infective. Personal attacks are really not needed and do know credit to the people involved or the organisations they head up. What's the point?
When faced with facts, evidence etc. their usual tactic is to go silent for a while. And then when they think everyone has forgotten, they start up with their fairytales again. Really this thread should be a 'sticky' until at least some of the points have been convincingly refuted. Their oft-repeated mantras, that the Kesva was hoodwinked etc. that people were threatened etc. are just hearsay that they tell one another until some of them actually believe it.
High time they came up with some real evidence or else shut up. If they want to 'heal the split' they should wind up AT and all join the Kowethas. They can then influence it policies in proportion to their numbers, and have their disagreements within the language movement, not out in public.
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Got to agree with CJenkin. Morvan's 21 points are exactly as i remember it. There is nothing in his posting that even points to an 'ho;ier than thou' attitude. His points are Historically correct. If i was you Hunlef, i would not be so quick to condone something which you obviously have little knowledge on.
I was around in 1986 and I was fortunate enough to have known your father who would, I am sure, be turning in his grave if he knew how spineless you turned out to be.
I am not going to get embroiled in a point by point discussion of Bailey's analysis - there is little point since Bailey, for whatever reason, will never see reason or change his warped opinion.
The point is this. There have been a number of unqualified, amateur language enthusiasts i.e. Bailey, Reeves, Dungbar, George et al who, despite not possessing a single appropriate qualification between them, who in many instances do not have any connection to or affiliation with the Cornish as a threatened national minority culture, profess to know what is best for Cornish people and shove it down our throats. On past experience with experts from across the border, I am fed up to the back teeth with such know-alls and charletains who seek only to be divisive and set any progress back decades. These people have had their day and their subversive activities must cease at the earliest opportunity.
Bailey is even on record on this forum as having besmirched the memory of our Cornish ancestors who died, in their thousands, in the vain hope of saving their families and their language. He and his weasly mate from over the Pond even dared to suggest that people like myself, who have devoted considerable sums of their time and money, for no personal gain whatsoever, are racist. Such a comment from the likes of these individuals carries far more offense than anything I might have dispensed towards them.
It is a very sad reflection on Cornish activism when people like Angobew, whom I thought to be a most resilient character, even come out in full support of one foreigner who has done so much to widen the already wide splits in the language community. Whether Bailey et al are members of a fifth column, or not, remains to be seen but, bearing in mind that there is much at stake in this constitutional duchy, anything subversive that the state might do would come as no surprise to me.
The fact remains that the Cornish movement is riddled with gullible (but often well-meaning) people, a fact that prolongs state repression of our culture. It is time for the charletains and false prophets to cease their amateur meddlings and ramblings and leave the administration and development of our culture to real Cornish people and others who, by their actions, prove their committment to the cause.
Honey Luv what time zone are you posting from ?? also you are quite welcome to martyr yourself for the cause, I would even donate some money towards a statue of you.
Hunlev : You are plain paranoid. You are attacking the very people who are trying to rebuild one small part of the cultural distinctiveness of Cornwall, and though no doubt unknowingly aiding and abetting those who would like to wipe Cornwall off the map.
I am in favour of Cornwall having as much autonomy as possible as soon as practically possible. That means having a sensible strategy to get from where we are now. It means building our own institutions (the Language Board is a small but important part of this), and building an identity, based in part on the past, but looking to the future.
This can't be done by wishful thinking. It has to start from an assessment of the real position as it is now. Not as a few people think it ought to be or might have been. Wishful thinking just gets in the way, it's self-delusion.
The language 'died', your parents didn't teach it to you. It was nothing to do with the English, at least no English (or Cornish) person now alive had anything to do with it. It happened. So if you want it back you've got to take the trouble to learn it.
Same with the politics. If there is Cornish devolution it will most probably be as a spin-off from Scottish independence, leading to a general break-up of the UK as presently constituted. Personally, I very much doubt it will come directly from ancient unenforcable charters and so forth, although they may just tip the balance. I certainly won't stand in the way of anyone who wants to try that approach.
You seem to deeply resent anyone who you don't consider to be 'Cornish', but you refuse to define that term. If you mean something like "having at least x Cornish grandparents" then that is plain racist. It is also xenophobic. People leave Cornwall and other people come here all the time. There's no way you're ever going to stop that. So you need a brand of Cornishness that welcomes people and is something they really want to be part of. Putting up the shutters and adopting a siege mentality is often the knee-jerk reaction of an embattled minority -- and it is cultural and political suicide.
Please read the points and tell me which you think are wrong. The Language Board is elected every three years by the Language Fellowship which is and always has been open to anyone who is sufficiently interested in the language to fork out £6 a year (£15 with the magazine in Cornish). That's less than most people spend during a visit to the pub, but enough to stop people with no interest in the language just walking in off the street.
Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)
Hunlef, I am not supporting anyone in my posting. What I am supporting is the truth. The points made are that truth in as much as my memory serves me. The point is that if KK was not supported by the majority of speakers, then they would join the Kowethas and change the People on the Kesva. Seeing as this has never happened, I have to believe that that oppostion is not strong enough to do it. I myself welcomed KK ut not on Linguistic grounds I have to admit. Most of the Cornish Speakers I know use KK, and I am talking about Cornish People. The users of the other Forms of who I know personally, are the minority. At the end of the day it is about the Language and its continuity. The most important part is its future.
Of course if the hoards of AT members join the Kowethas (Cowethas), they could outnumber the Kemmyn users and the K(c)owethas will start using the SWF traditional.
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