V Tree
A large V shaped pine tree on the Antony estate near Torpoint...
Seaton Beach
Located at the bottom of the Seaton River valley this sand and shingle beach is popular with families. At low tide it joins up with Downderry around the headland...
Seaton River
The Seaton River as it flows out of the valley and through the village of the same name...
Portwrinkle
Looking down over the one time fishing village of Portwrinkle. In the background is the start of Whitsand Bay as it stretches 4 miles down the Rame Peninsula...
Your remarks on the naughtily uncontrollable nature of actual speakers not to adhere rigidly to a standard pronunciation even if it is asit were put on a plate in front of them orthographically are very true. Hence as you say the varying accents of English, some of which I find incredibly difficult to catch(eg ever tried understanding broad Aberdonians or Brummies going at it? Often has me bamboozled! Your point that the variations in Cornish are far less I presume most folk would agree with. Still, that does not mean a phonemic script is without great virtue, especially in overcoming initial intimidation of a brand new spelling for those not overly talented at acquiring languages. For Cornish this could be vital in building up its speaker base whereas in another, established tongue the extra effort wouldn't matter so much. The one proviso as Hunlef has insisted on here and I agree unreservedly is that any such spelling system HAS to be far more certain its phonemic analysis of the language is correct or else however can it claim to be or convince others that it truly is an authentic representation of the sources on which the whole language after all depends? UCR and Late may strive for phonemic consistency as well but they do not put that as the primary overriding concern....historical attestation is also an important consideration with them. As I said I strongly suspect independent linguists will follow this route. My only misgiving would be that it produce a far from regular, predictable 'user friendly' spelling but give us a more chaotic one like that of English..though on that count surely English is in a class of its own, thankfully! I do agree that ordinary learners will probably find the refined phonetic differences that have been argued over rather lost on them. You only have to listen to some of the tapes accompanying the various courses to realise this! Still, even if we ended up with something more akin to UCR it surely is not THAT an unstable spelling system as to drive learners away in droves! Comparing it with KK I cannot say there is that much advantage from a practical point of view in either version. Late is slightly more demanding but not that much and its grammatical structures do seem somewhat more simplified. I see Dr george criticises Dick Gendall for including too much old 'anglo-Cornish' in his version of celtic Cornish. Wonder if others feel this is valid?
As Coady says this is a golden opportunity for the language and a very rare gift it is as most languages are either allowed to wither or are positively stamped out. Let us truly hope it will also usher in a resurrgence in the Revival !
Incidentally, someone mentioned that all of these fascinating contributions are not reaching the official Language Officer, I forget her name, but surely some technical whizz kid on here can forward it all to her or at least alert her to what's been expressed. It is incontrovertible evidence of the importance of the Cornish language to the Cornish people, I think.
Clearly some Cornish Students will learn Cornish through a non-phonemic form like Unified. (though the qulaity of their oral Cornish might leave a lot to be desired)
The issue is that this is much more difficult to do. Some People who began learning with Unified switched to a phonemic spelling system because it helps you to learn and become more fluent more quickly.
After I began learning Cornish with unified, I went to Wales and learnt more Welsh in 6 months than Cornish in 3 years precisely because it is largely phonemic as is our sister language Breton.
Many minority languages are phonemic to try and give new learners as much help as possible learning the language.
An obvious example of a non-phonemic language is English which is extremely difficult for non-native users to master. Cornish is in no way comparable to English.
Personally I would prefer a spelling system that helps learners rather than hinders them - especially as learning the language is so difficult with English everywhere and all the odds being stacked against Cornish usage.
It is also worth noting that Welsh is one of the few minority languages that is bucking the trend in increasing speakers. Phonemic orthography is only one factor in helping it.
Hunlef, as U, UCR and KK are basically the same language, are you worried about the linguistic foundation of all of them? Seeming to imply that students of Cornish cannot learn a non-phonemic version are your words, not mine*: I am saying (as are several others here) that phonemic systems are much easier to learn so would be a big benefit to a minority language at this important turning point in its history. Perhaps you are happy to deliberately make Cornish harder for people to learn, in order to keep it a minority language within Cornwall?
( * - Putting words into my mouth was a habit of stroppygob's and not one I appreciate.)
That's one of my points: the pronounciation and spelling varies across our sources, so there IS no SINGLE, AUTHENTIC pronounciation of many Cornish words! All of our systems are therefore a compromise between the pronounciations surmised from the texts from the era each system is based on. It is impossible with the limited texts we have to produce a 100% authentic version of Cornish from any period of history, all we can do is produce best-guess versions of Cornish, filling in the gaps with extrapolated evidence from other periods in history and educated guesses.
My fear is that we will wind up with a new version of Cornish in May with many gaps and arguable assumptions in it just like the versions currently in use, because there are many grammatical points and swathes of vocabulary which are not attested. Our band of academic linguists will not agree all the time and indeed will have to make similar or identical assumptions about how to fill in the gaps as our amateurs, so we are likely to end up with an arguable Cornish even after the SWF-generating process!
And I don't think anyone in the language movement wants to see this messed up, Coady! It is a concern though that the hard-liners in the systems which don't form the basis of the SWF may be vocal in their disapproval and try to scupper the agreement.
There are basically four systems. There might not be much to choose between them. All I seek is the best form for official use so that future generations will have the best. That is all. I don't give a fig whether it is KK, UCR or Modern or a mixture of the whole damn lot, providing that expert opinion supports the final choice. It's quite simple, really!
I think you have misunderstood my position on phonemics. I don't think I gave any such inference that students of Cornish cannot learn a non-phonemic version. If I did, then I apologise. If a phonemic system is endorsed by the panel of independent, academic experts in the final analysis, then I would, of course accept it.
I agree with that entirely. The only people who can best guess are the qualified linguistic experts, with the help and advice of those with direct experience of Cornish. I hope everyone can be satisfied with such an approach.
But at least that SWF will have been based on academic criteria and not upon a "we know best" approach by unqualified people.
Think yourself lucky! Hunlef and Rosenn-de do this to me all the time! I don't recognise half the things I've said in this forum - which is not surprising, really, because I haven't said them.
I think this will be very very difficult, if not impossible, because public bodies will be supporting the SWF. Once the SWF is in schools and other areas of public life anyone that wants to stand on the sidelines whining and moaning will be wasting their breath. In the past the reason this has been able to cause so much trouble (and be a "PR" disaster) is mostly down to the fact that there was no agreed *official* standard so anyone keen to push a point of view has felt they are in with a chance. Once agreement has been reached, I really can't see public bodies listening to such individuals or groups. And they'll soon get fed up with it if they do - "We have noted your comments, but we will continue to use the agreed SWF in schools. Thank you for your interest."
It's not vocal disapproval that should be worrying, but the possibility that competent users of the language will try to ignore the SWF for as long as they can, or walk away from it. Getting it up and running as quickly as possible will require all the resources we have currently, plus some.
Look at your postings and you will see that you have been a tad inconsistent on occasions. I have merely picked you up on such inconsistencies.
The last paragraph that you have posted finally puts this subject to bed. You have accepted that there will be a standard form of Cornish for official public use and, more importantly, the reaons why such a form is so necessary.
Does anyone honestly think that agreement can and will be reached? If - worst case scenario; the SWF is a fifth version of Kernewek and is announced 'officially' as the definitive written form, and doesn't gain ground support from the various factions, what then? Wasn't KK adopted as the 'official form' by the Cornish Language Board in 1986? And look what has happened since... The Board is pushing heavily for KK, and although KK has adopted some internal changes since its foundation even these do not seem to be readily accepted.
For instance back in June a letter was published in 'An Gannas' by a Mr. Tom Trethewey suggesting to The Board the introduction of the letter 'z' in certain instances as a 'more authentic' spelling for certain words; koes - koez, gesys - gezyz, mes - mez etc. This suggestion was dumped on from a great height as absolutely impractical on the grounds that dictionaries would have to be re-written, publications would have to be re-printed, teaching materials and examinations altered and twenty years of hard work would be flushed down the loo for a meaningless idiosyncracy of spelling.
Can anyone imagine these people rolling over, wistfully throwing away their dictionaries, publications and translations and starting over? Of course UCR was a better system after all, how foolish we have been all these years... koz I kann't.
If your 'dumping on from a great height' refers to the rather harsh letters in the following one or two editions of An Gannas, then IIRC the dumping was done by Pol Hodge and one other. You really cannot tar all Kemmyn users with the same brush because a couple of outspoken supporters have sounded off about a suggested change. Most Kemmyn users just want a civilly-agreed version the same as everyone else does. I'm sure that if someone had come along and suggested some sort of wide-sweeping changes to UCR then one or two UCR supporters will have dumped on them from a great height too!
Groups supporting all the versions contain a few hot-heads who will be agressive and confrontational, but most supporters of all forms just want to get along.
I suspect you are deliberately trying to stir up an argument...sorry to disappoint.
FlammNew, are you suggesting that Pol Hodge is a hot-head?
Moi? Try to stir up an argument in such a serene environment? Shameless behaviour, I was merely voicing a concern, suggesting the awful possibility of a further fracturing of the language, however if what I read is to be believed it appears, on the surface at least, that everyone is playing nice together....
The one thing that really annoys me more than anything else about Cornish, is this c**p that people keep sprouting about authentic Cornish. Oh that is a short O, or that is a long A. Ok, to try and get it near is fine, but to criticise over something that is just a way we would pronounce that word today is such total B*ll**ks. Languages change through time, pronounciation being one of them. So to get tied up in such depth is totally pathetic.
As is this authentic spelling system. All the People who go on and on about authentic spelling, for god sake GET A LIFE. Spelling is just a way of translating the spoken word onto paper. What if A's were X's and all the other letters were different too. Does it matter, what matters is that a Person reading what is written knows that that is how you spell this one word. I mean, has the whole World become so tied up in utter c**p to not see that most of this is such a waste of time and that at the end of the Day it means nothing.
So for the sake of Sanity (mine spacifically) let this matter be over and done with as soon as. Then we can get back to what is really important, and that is getting as many People to Speak Cornish as is possible.
I'm sorry if Branvras thinks I have been putting word in his mouth...honestly, I have not intended any such thing and if you have got that impression I am very sorry.
Anyway, more to the point, I agree wholeheartedly with both C.Jenkins that the Welsh orthography is far superior to that of he hotch potch English system! Whether it is invariably easy to deduce pronunciations from it I am less convinced by my own experiences learning it. And whether Unified or UCR are so obviously inferior in this respect I am not sure. I certainly haven't been finding them that confusing!
The point about no version ever attaining 100% authenticity accuracy is well taken. As you say the source texts vary due to various factors, not least the 'diachronic' element they span different periods in the language's development.Thus it is correct that any system derived from them must only be at best an approximation. Fair enough but that does not mean we should settle for something less than what the best linguistic analysis can yield which in some ways was why the old Unified was looked on so askance by professional, academic linguists. I'm sure this prejudice can be overcome if they are convinced a reasonable job to get as close as possible to the original has been made.
It is a pity in a way we cannot guage how many actual learners have found a preference for a phonemic system but I suspect it would top such a poll and I do not at all dismiss its advantages for he language.
However, the 'weakness' a phonemic system, to my mind, is that in being rigidly tied to one set of sounds it cannot reflect precisely what has been said about the revived tongue and that is that it is based on sources where variations are part of the equation and perhaps UCR or Late would accommodate that slight diversity better?
Will the SWF be just an additional competitor the revival movement can well do without? I do doubt this for exactly the reasons given above: this time it will have the authority of official status behind it and all the advantages that confers. Which is why we hope and pray a new genuinely 'Common' form is produced and command the support of just about everyone who loves the language.
I really don't think that lexical or even grammatical gaps wil appear just because professionals will be involved in this.A quick glance at the dictionaries of the various factions proves the gaps are creatively plugged even by those who are 'professionals'; that is a perfectly legitimate process of any living language..I vividly recall in my Scottish gaelic classes being given assignments on creating 'registers' or classified vocabulries for various facets of modern living not covered in the traditional language. These were fun exercises and I can assure you the lecturers were as enthusuastic as the students!
Anyway the safest road would surely be to create a dictionary for the SWF that comprehensively as possible incorporated all the items, recast in SWF, from its predecesors, thereby avoiding disappointments and feuding at needless omissions or 'purging'.
Can you imagine if 'pellgowser' or 'dewwedwer' were left out? There'd be a riot!
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