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	Single Written Form for Cornish Language
Nosdan	Posted: 05.05.2008, 22:43
registered: Sep. 2006 Posts: 1169 Status: offline last visit: 20.11.08	Quotebut carrying on speaking precisely as they do now, in the same way that UC speakers didn't change pronunciation when they changed to Kemmyn. If the rules are as complicated as the posts on this thread suggest I'm not going to learn the spelling rules even if I change my spelling. No one has said you have to change the way you speak... Its quite the opposite in fact, some of the shortcomings of the SWF probably come from accomodating the various spoken forms just as much as the written forms. And if you don't learn the spelling rules, what are you going to change your spelling too? Really the rules are not that different (in KK conversion) to what you already do. Besides its just another set of rules you all learned them for KK, a lot of people learned them for UC... Its not that complicated (whatever its short comings) Mar vedhow avel gelvinek (as maazed as a curlew)


goky	Posted: 05.05.2008, 23:06
registered: May. 2007 Posts: 1828 Status: offline last visit: 09.11.08	UC to KK was going from one form to another, KK to SWF is going to about 5 different forms The blog The Great Goky Blog


Heiko	Posted: 05.05.2008, 23:18
registered: Jun. 2007 Posts: 20 Status: offline last visit: 07.11.08	What should I do: laugh or cry? I really do not know. You once had four spellings, came together to have one and ended up having five. Heiko


Nosdan	Posted: 06.05.2008, 00:01
registered: Sep. 2006 Posts: 1169 Status: offline last visit: 20.11.08	5 WHAT....!!! There is one Single Written Form, and some small amendments for one flavour of cornish (late) and some fancy (traditional) letters instead for those who like them... You only need concentrate on the main form. Mar vedhow avel gelvinek (as maazed as a curlew)


goky	Posted: 06.05.2008, 00:14
registered: May. 2007 Posts: 1828 Status: offline last visit: 09.11.08	so what is the point of all the others? The blog The Great Goky Blog


morvran	Posted: 06.05.2008, 00:50
registered: Mar. 2007 Posts: 1314 Status: online	HeikoWhat should I do: laugh or cry? I really do not know. You once had four spellings, came together to have one and ended up having five. Heiko This was predicted, probably several times on this thread alone, all because the Commission didn't have the guts to pick a winner. For example they could have picked UC if they'd wanted to play safe. Seventy Percent of "competent & frequent" Cornish users prefer to write KK! (MAGA/CLP Survey)


shrdlu	Posted: 06.05.2008, 09:17
registered: Feb. 2008 Posts: 241 Status: offline last visit: 08.07.08	NosdanNo one has said you have to change the way you speak... If you don't change the way you speak to fit the SWF rules then its not gonna be a better-fit spelling system than the one's what we use now. Its often been said here that Kemmyn speaker's dont follow the rules but has the SWF been designed to fit the KK rules or the way ppl actually speak? Iwas hoping for a straightforward SWF that would be easier to learn than anything we have but the confusion over the SWF form of arloedhes shows that its anything butt.


marhak	Posted: 06.05.2008, 09:51
registered: Jun. 2006 Posts: 4080 Status: online	To be fair, shrdlu, there isn't any confusion over the word. In the SWF it's spelt <arlodh>, plurals <arlydhi, arlydhy>, and that's it (whether it's correct or not is another matter).


pietercharles	Posted: 06.05.2008, 10:15
registered: Jun. 2007 Posts: 520 Status: offline last visit: 12.10.08	marhakThe flaws in the SWF are more a case of fine tuning. They're not huge, nor insurmountable. Some of them are small like the gender of <cowethas/kowethas>, given in the SWF word list as masculine. It's feminine, as shown by "an gowethas" in Beunans Meriasek. Ken George has it as feminine in his original 1992 dictionary (as had all other dictionaries - Nance, Williams, etc.) but, in his later Gerlyver Kres, he changed the gender to masculine. No one seems to know why, and Albert and Ben have obviously been influenced by this Obviously. Oh dear, now we're using the wordlist in the SWF document in an attempt to highlight George's flawed scholarship. Good job marhak's famililar enough with Bewnans Meriasek to spot this kind of thing, even if he hasn't learnt to whistle the theme tune from 'Friends' yet.... On the other hand, it's reassuring to see that Albert and Ben used the Gerlyver Kres - 'obviously' to avoid the schoolboy howlers you get when you use the Williams dictionary...


Palores	Posted: 06.05.2008, 10:34
registered: Apr. 2007 Posts: 296 Status: offline last visit: 02.12.08	marhakOne of the problems with KK was the ambiguity between the <oe> sounds There is no ambiguity, and marhak is wrong to imply that there is. When long, as in poeth, <oe> is pronounced [o:]; when of mid-length, as in arloedhes, it is [o.]; when short, as in arloedh, it is [7]. The length of the vowel is determined from the stress and from the nature of the following consonants.


shrdlu	Posted: 06.05.2008, 10:44
registered: Feb. 2008 Posts: 241 Status: offline last visit: 08.07.08	To be even fairer marhak I didnt mention arlodh, I wrote: shrdluthe SWF form of arloedhes and I still dont understaqnd why its arlodhes and not arloodhes. Does <oo> only appear in monosyllables or something? Are we supposed to remember how words used to be spelt for the new spellings to appear to follow a pattern? Will the new rules appear consistent to ppl learning Cornish for the first time?


Nosdan	Posted: 06.05.2008, 11:13
registered: Sep. 2006 Posts: 1169 Status: offline last visit: 20.11.08	shrdluand I still dont understaqnd why its arlodhes and not arloodhes. Does <oo> only appear in monosyllables or something? AS far as I can tell, no it doesn't appear in polysyllabic words, swf specIn polysyllabic words based on roots in <oo>, this vowel will be spelled as <o>, reflecting the alternation between stressed [uː] in monosyllables and stressed [ɔ] in polysyllables seen in RLC. Mar vedhow avel gelvinek (as maazed as a curlew)


shrdlu	Posted: 06.05.2008, 11:23
registered: Feb. 2008 Posts: 241 Status: offline last visit: 08.07.08	So is <o> said differently if it comes from an old word with <o> or from an old word with <oe>? Is the <o> in bohes different to the <o> in arlodhes?


Nosdan	Posted: 06.05.2008, 11:40
registered: Sep. 2006 Posts: 1169 Status: offline last visit: 20.11.08	This is ambiguous, and i've mentioned it before but no one picked up on it... There is no distinction between the two short <o> sounds, or intermediate position long sounds. As far as I can tell. edited by: Nosdan, May 06, 2008 - 11:42 AM Mar vedhow avel gelvinek (as maazed as a curlew)


pietercharles	Posted: 06.05.2008, 12:03
registered: Jun. 2007 Posts: 520 Status: offline last visit: 12.10.08	There are two keys to the 'arlodhes' problem. The first is in the SWF for UC users section on pages 98-99. It says "Vowels in stressed syllables are short before an unstressed syllable". [This must apply whether you're a KK or a UC or an anything else user. It's just missing from the SWF for KK users section, when in fact it's a more important piece of information for KK users than for UC users because in KK these vowels are not short, they are half-long] This rule tells you that the vowel in question is short, because it is in the stressed syllable and it comes before an unstressed syllable, '-es'. The second key is in Section 3.7 which tells you that this vowel, when short (as it is here) is always spelt <o>. Hence <arlodhes>.

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