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Single Written Form for Cornish Language

marhak Posted: 06.05.2008, 22:04

marhak

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Then, Palores, how do you explain <boekka> for <bucka>, <bukka>, <bucca>, the vowel of which has always been pronounced as a short U as in "hut"?
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morvran Posted: 07.05.2008, 00:07

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fwlturWhy isn't < oo > used everywhere that KK uses < oe > ? UCR and RLC users could simply pronounce any < oo > that is not in a monosylabic word as [ O ] since for them the < oo > is only pronounce [ u ] in that circumstance. Every where else they would automatically substitute the pronunciation [ O ]. Doing that and allowing KK users to have a varient that doesn't include vocalic alternation would have gone a long way toward making the SWF acceptable to more KK users.


As far as I can make out the reasoning goes like this. The texts generally only distinguish fully long /o/ in monosyllables, (by writing "oy, ou, oo" etc), and short /o/ (generally written "u" but sometimes alternating with "o" ). When /o/ was stressed in a polysyllable like arloedhes or galloezek the scribes could not use "u" because in this context it signified /y/ and they were reluctant to use digraphs other than in stressed monosyllables (don't ask me why, but they were). So they had no easy way to distinguish half-long /o/ from /O/, writing both "o". This sort of worked because in Middle English a written "o" could signify either of two long back vowels ME /O:/ and /o:/ which with the Great Vowel Shift getting under way were both being raised, so the match with Cornish /O/ and /U/ was pretty good. At least that's my reading, and it matches the situation with /E/ and /I/, that is when half long both were often spelled "e". My interpretation is that since writing both /o/ and /O/ as "o" when half long could not be due to Brittonic vowel alternation (as seen in Welsh), neither was the "e/y" 'vowel alternation' seen in the Cornish mss. Both can be explained on the basis of Middle English scribal habits and limitations carried over to Cornish. On a par with not distinguishing the two "th" sounds or /s/ from /z/ etc.

Dr. Williams however seems to have taken a different tack. He has quietly given up the idea that Middle Cornish vowel alternation (e.g. "gwyth ~ gwethen" ) goes back to Early British and instead now appears to explain it on the basis of his hypothetical early prosodic shift (based on faith and circular argument). That is, he believes that MC "gwethen" really does mean ['gwEth@n] and by the same token that "gallosek/-jak" means [ga'lOdZ@k] not say [ga'lo.ZEk]. So now he has vocalic alternation affecting both front and back mid vowels as yet another consequence of a prosodic shift c1300. Both the existance of such an early PS and quite how it had this effect on the vowels I find unconvincing, to say the least.

The most unconvincing part is this. The pairs of vowels /I/ & /E/ and /U/ & /O/ are distinguished in the texts when fully long in stressed monosyllables. They are also fairly well distinguished when short (stressed or unstressed). It is only in the in-between situation, when half-long in the stressed penult of polysyllables that the scribes confused them. This strongly suggests that the mix-up was caused by scribal habits (Middle English habits that is) not by any actual merger of the sounds, since there would need to have been some very very unusual phonology going on for the half-long vowels to merge, but the stronger long vowels, and the much weaker short vowels to both remain distinct.

Nevertheless this bit on nonsense has become part of the UCR creed and appears to have been introduced into the SWF by its advocates on the AHG. As I've tried to show, it makes no real linguistic sense, and as various postings here have shown, it makes no intuitive sense to potential users of the orthography either.




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morvran Posted: 07.05.2008, 00:24

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marhakThen, Palores, how do you explain <boekka> for <bucka>, <bukka>, <bucca>, the vowel of which has always been pronounced as a short U as in "hut"?


I though you said you didn't have a Tardis? Maybe you've found the secret time portal under Chun Quoit? The point is neither you nor I know how this word would have been pronounced by a traditional Cornish speaker when speaking Cornish. I'm not even sure it was ever adopted into the Cornish language, it's an English word as far as I know. What's wrong with boekka or boocka, boucka etc. The double kk or ck shows that the vowel must be short, and bucka only works in a orthography that doesn't need to indicate /y/ (the French 'lune' sound). This is the problem with trying to represent different sound systems with one spelling system. The SWF then muddles the issue even further with side-forms and varients.
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Nosdan Posted: 07.05.2008, 10:21

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do you not think, as painful as it maybe... that ó might distinguish the kk <oe> digraph better?

Mar vedhow avel gelvinek
(as maazed as a curlew)
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Palores Posted: 07.05.2008, 10:52



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marhakThen, Palores, how do you explain <boekka> for <bucka>, <bukka>, <bucca>, the vowel of which has always been pronounced as a short U as in "hut"?

By applying the same principles that I gave in my post on page 209. There is no inconsistency here. We need to distinguish /o/ from /y/, whether long, mid-long, or short.
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KarlT Posted: 07.05.2008, 11:28



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marhakThen, Palores, how do you explain <boekka> for <bucka>, <bukka>, <bucca>, the vowel of which has always been pronounced as a short U as in "hut"?


But which sound is that? I pronounce that "u" the same as the "oo" in "took", but in other parts of the country it's between that and the short "a" of cat.
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morvyl Posted: 07.05.2008, 13:00

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SWF specification §3.7:
"The SWF spells the sound represented by KK <oe> as <oo> where the vowel in question is long and RLC has [u:]. In all other cases, the graph <o> is used for KK <oe>."
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shrdlu Posted: 07.05.2008, 13:24

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I ask again: how consistent will the SWF appear to new users? Will they need to learn how word's used to be spelled in all the old systems for the new one to make sence?
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Palores Posted: 07.05.2008, 13:37



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morvylSWF specification §3.7:
"The SWF spells the sound represented by KK <oe> as <oo> where the vowel in question is long and RLC has [u:]. In all other cases, the graph <o> is used for KK <oe>."

This is one of many mistakes in the Silly Written Form. As morvran points out, a distinction was made in the texts between /o/ and /O/ when unstressed by using u for the former, as in arluth (over 500 examples; *arloth appears unattested). This distinction has been effaced in Political Cornish.
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TheElvenLord Posted: 07.05.2008, 15:51

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In my opinion - OO such as Moos, Kavoos etc. look ugly. OE or U or somthing else does look much better.

TEL

My a gar boos
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morvran Posted: 07.05.2008, 16:25

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morvylSWF specification §3.7:
"The SWF spells the sound represented by KK <oe> as <oo> where the vowel in question is long and RLC has [u:]. In all other cases, the graph <o> is used for KK <oe>."


In which case the SWF cannot be used to teach KK (i.e. historically correct) pronunciation without starting to add diacritics, since it muddles up the two o-sounds even where they are clearly distinguished in the texts e.g. when short. So it's a non-starter for us, i.e. 80% of the Revival. It also cannot be used as a pronunciation guide to the trad. texts, since it would have "arlodh" rhyming with "koodh" etc which is often worse than using the ms spellings! So if it's useless to KK-er who mostly speak, read, write and teach the revived language, and it's useless for academic work, what really is the point?

The only point I can see is to damage the Revival.

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morvran Posted: 07.05.2008, 16:29

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TheElvenLordIn my opinion - OO such as Moos, Kavoos etc. look ugly. OE or U or somthing else does look much better.


I fear the devisors of the Very Silly Written Mess have overlooked the cultural fall-out from "poos", but then, on their heads be it (figuratively speaking, of course) icon_evil
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Palores Posted: 07.05.2008, 17:54



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I now have the entire SWF document. During the preceding discussions, people asked from time to time whether the SWF was concerned solely with spelling, or whether pronunciation or indeed grammar was considered. In the document are the following matters of principle: "Late Cornish syntactic structures are deemed to be just as correct as their Middle Cornish counterparts" (p.2) and "the SWF must account for the full range of linguistic and morphological variation found in Revived Cornish" (p.58). I do not remember these points being put forward for discussion. They now seem to be taken as axiomatic. They appear to give carte blanche to a teacher to use the grammar and pronunciation of his/her choice. This is a recipe for educational chaos.
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morvran Posted: 07.05.2008, 19:46

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There certainly was much talk of teachers exposing students to many different types of written Cornish, but that's probably not how things work in schools. Time will be limited and teachers will I imagine be inclined to ignore Cornish unless it is presented as a simple uniform package. With luck they may find time to teach one Cornish, they will not be willing to try to teach three or more Cornishes in parallel. More likely they will avoid the language altogether.
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Bardh Posted: 07.05.2008, 20:45

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That's one of the things I've been afraid of since this farce was set in motion.
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