V Tree
A large V shaped pine tree on the Antony estate near Torpoint...
Seaton Beach
Located at the bottom of the Seaton River valley this sand and shingle beach is popular with families. At low tide it joins up with Downderry around the headland...
Seaton River
The Seaton River as it flows out of the valley and through the village of the same name...
Portwrinkle
Looking down over the one time fishing village of Portwrinkle. In the background is the start of Whitsand Bay as it stretches 4 miles down the Rame Peninsula...
Even if it does turn out to be a well thought out compromise, my previous point about having a SWF with no users or literature only six months before starting in schools still stands. Unless we pick one of the existing systems and make only minor changes to it in order for it to become acceptable to users of the three strands, we're going to have a massive task on our hands to be ready in time. My suggestions to the process would be to either start with KK and change it enough to make it acceptable to the others, or to start with Unys/UCR and make it phonemic.
I strongly believe that a phonemic system makes a language far easier to teach and to learn, which is an important consideration - but you may have noticed that before...
Looking at gerlyver kernewek kemmyn: Gorthugher
contains the word gorth, isn't found in Breton & Welsh,
is a word whose development is obscure, and whose spelling is derived wholly or partially on textual evidence. According to Ken It's spelling is in some doubt
; if more evidence were forthcoming, it could cause the spelling of such words to be improved. It is attested in old, middle and late Cornish, it occurs between 10 & 31 times. It is found in the VC as
gurthuper
gurth > develops to gorth
u > is the <u> sound and grapheme as used by KK but written as 'ew' occasionally in later forms.
p > is a representation not of p but the <gh> sound,
hence gorth-u-gh-er. The difference between this and gorth-ew-er in pronunciation is so subtle that most people wouldn't pick it up and certainly it is mutually understandable. For west penwithians, it may well suit the accent with longer stress on the vowels, but for the rest of us east of hayle river, it would seem to be more appropriate to use the former.
Does worrying about such a small difference as gorth-oogh-er/gorth-ew-er really matter when the future of the language is at stake? Pick a spelling, accept that people from Penwith pronounce it slightly differently and let's move on!
If we are going to pick over every single word in the dictionaries to this extent we won't even have agreed the words beginning with 'A' by May, let alone have agreed on the form of the whole language. We HAVE to draw a line in the sand, work towards agreement between the forms of the language we have TODAY andMOVE ON!
Tedn easy, es et, Conan but I think we can get there. Flamm's proposal (or something like it) would be a good starting point.
Putting cards on the table, my own concerns with KK is that some aspects of its spelling are just too far removed from textual spelling, and texts are bound to form essential study material. Also, that some conventions of KK are distinctly Breton or Welsh in character and, for me at least, this tends to blur the distinction between the languages. Those are my only real concerns and I feel that if we could concentrate on compromises in those areas, we'd be there.
I don't agree here - If you learn a language you don't study historic texts until you are completely fluent by which time you can understand them despite the historic spellings - certainly historic cornish is easier to understand as a modern cornish speaker than Chaucer or even original shakespeare ( we usually read modern forms of this). Learners will make use of texts from the 20th & 21st century whilst they are learning. Perhaps the SWF should be more linked to that body of Cornish.
Personally, I feel that is a strength - the difference between Cornish and Breton is small and fluent speakers can understand a great deal - our languages should be closely linked and if written forms reflect that then it is helpful to all concerned especially if you want to learn one of our sister languages.
I think people have diferent perspectives (which is probably very healthy) but the key surely is that more people should use the Cornish language regardless of written form.
Agree with you there, CJ. The link to the historical texts shouldn't be emphasised so much, we should stop looking backwards quite so much, and look ahead at the future of Kernewek. Fair enough for people taking 4th grade to be expected to study an old text, same as people doing A-level english lit study Shakespeare, but I think it should be de-emphasised for learners.
I wasn't having a go at you personally above, it was just a general rail against the nitpicking people who don't like a particular form because it's actually got a half-long instead of a long vowel in three words or somesuch nonsense.
I wonder if anyone on the CLP is following the love-in on this thread and seeing how we can all get along?
Here we do differ, Conan but, what the hell, I'm always ready to listen and learn. Thing is, that we're all talking without rancour (NOT to be pronounced the Jonathan Woss way unless applicable to certain other contributors to this forum) and that means that we WILL progress and get a result that maybe not all will be happy with, but most will see as a reasonable compromise whilst staying true to the language itself.
This is probably the most important time in the revivals History. The arguments that have gone on now for so long have more than damaged the views on our Language. I think right now things are going in the right direction, but i do have worries. What if some people do not like the SWF, what then? will it just become another form of Cornish. Will KK users adopt it, or UC users, what about the late Cornish people? I mean we are Cornish and most can't even agree on what is black and white.
If and when this is adopted, i am sure that it will have enough support. I just hope that most of the activists support it. With it being the form to be taught in schools, i am sure that the dinosaurs and the self proclaimists will eventually be buried in their own mire. For it is the future of our Language that is the most important.
It would be best if we all embraced the SWF, whatever form it takes (and, in my opinion, it's likely to be a compromise between existing forms but - hopefully - a well thought out one so that we don't end up with a codge that will just reduce us to a laughing stock. I don't think that will happen, though - too many good and knowledgeable people are involved). It's obvious from what's being said on this thread that the consensus is that we move on once we have the SWF. That's when we team up again (after 20 years wrangling) to get the show on the road.
Um.... I'm sorry to be the one that says it... but wake up! You are ALREADY a laughing stock... and amongst normal everyday Cornish people too. This very thread is evidence of what a nonsense it all is.
Why so negative, Coady? OK, so things haven't been quite so wonderful in recent years - all that's already starting to change - through positive attitudes. It's negativity that holds us all back.
Flamm, my question about gorthewer/gorthugher was one that I've had for some time, and this thread seemed a good place to get it answered. It's not important in the wider sense.
No, we won't have to go through the dictionary from first page to last - many words remain the same in all current systems, so we can leave them alone. It's still a sizeable job but I have faith that there's enough all-round expertise to get it done. Those people, too, want a speedy conclusion to the SWF and it's been done before - the Romansch language in Switzerland, for example, where there were at least 7 different varieties. Yes, very different language but very same problems that were sorted out to the satisfaction of most (you can never please everybody and we'll have to accept that, too).
I've just checked out the Cornish speaking topic on here, I wondered how it was going. No postings for almost 2 months. So much for a advancing the Cornish language :wink:
I have to disagree with Coady's statement about it being a laughing stock by ordinary Cornish people. Yes there are a few, but these are the ones who want to lick English A**. They are basically ignorant and would sell their Mother to be accepted by them. When i meet them i tell them what they are, no better than Nazi's, selfish toads of the lowest order, IMHO
I find that a majority of Cornish are proud of their Heritage and Language. OK they might not be active in it, are too busy or just can't be bothered. That is a long way from Coady's rash statement. They are on the whole fed up with the arguments within the Language, and like many want it settled once and for all. No-one said reviving a Language was going to be easy, but each step is a step forward. There might be obsticles, but that is a part of the path the Language has to take. I for one hope that this next 12 months will be the last we have to take to put OUR Language back to where it should be.
As for you Coady, no-one is saying that you have to be a part of it, but for god sake have some decency and let those who want it, have that right. So for all of us who support it, just shut up, ok.
Police name death crash cyclist
Police in Cornwall name a cyclist who died after being badly injured in a collision on Sunday.
Training to distribute aid boxes
Cornish-based charity Shelterbox trains Burmese workers to distribute its boxes of aid for cyclone victims.
Pony pair graze conservation area
Two Exmoor ponies are installed at a Cornish conservation area to help manage the site by grazing.
Gyrocopter pilot had heart attack
A gyrocopter pilot whose machine crashed on the way to Bodmin Airfield died from natural causes.
Sanctuary man jailed over abuse
The former owner of a donkey sanctuary is jailed for five years for sexually abusing young girls.
Lorry stuck between buildings
A wrong turn ends in embarrassment for a lorry driver as his vehicle gets stuck in a Cornish village.
Police save harbour jump suspect
A man attempting to run from police is rescued by them after jumping into a harbour in Cornwall.
Chapel to host animal blessing service
An animal blessing service is to be held at Tredarvo chapel on Sunday at 3pm, conducted by reverend William Ireland. Anybody is welcome to attend the hour-long service with their pets, and this will be followed by refreshments. Mr Ireland said: "I ...
