V Tree
A large V shaped pine tree on the Antony estate near Torpoint...
Seaton Beach
Located at the bottom of the Seaton River valley this sand and shingle beach is popular with families. At low tide it joins up with Downderry around the headland...
Seaton River
The Seaton River as it flows out of the valley and through the village of the same name...
Portwrinkle
Looking down over the one time fishing village of Portwrinkle. In the background is the start of Whitsand Bay as it stretches 4 miles down the Rame Peninsula...
Angofbew - the word you're looking for is quislings. In the event of a war, these would be lined up against a wall and shot. The story will mon eday be told - I got shafted by a very (locally )powerful and political quisling. As he was a dishonest b---d, I knew that, if the opportunity arose, I would shaft him in return. I did - the guy has not been involved ion local politics now for 5 years. Oh, and his wife - who was equally dishionest - no longer serves on the magistrates bench. Did I enjoy that? Bloody right I did!
The lack of Cornish language postings here is no reflection on the language movement as a whole. What you're extrapolating is a bit like saying, "There were no murders in my house today so the whole world's at peace."
Please can we keep this thread on topic, folks - there are plenty of other threads to discuss politics.
Its often said that KK is very different to the texts, but this is from Skeul an Yeth Lyver Onan and shows how close KK is to the middle Cornish of the Ordinalia
Ordinalia: My a vyn aga sywa
K. Kemmyn: My a vynn aga sywya
O: dhe'n mernans aga gorra
KK: dhe'n mernans aga gorra
O: kekyffrys byan ha bras
KK: kekeffrys byghan ha bras.
O: Ny fynnaf, certan gasa
KK: Ny vynnav sertan gasa
O: onan vyth ol the vewa
KK: onan vydh oll dhe vywa.
Both are clearly very similar - and certainly if you had a piece of original late 15th century English it would show huge divergence from modern english in comparison.
The point I'm making is that what we are arguing over is actually very small points like the use of double consonants, the use or not of gh and some discussion over vowels.
For example above byghan which preserves the archaic and largely unvoiced gh could be maintained in the SWF but fluent users could write by'an - like english does not and doesn't both are acceptable forms
gh definitely appears in Nances 1955 dictionary - perhaps N.Williams has dropped it despite it being used as far back as Jenner. It doesn't always appear in middle Cornish texts because it was starting to be unvoiced by then and had largely disappeared by late Cornish texts.
gh is a very celtic sound so personally I prefer people to use it - however in rapid speech it is very easy to soften it.
My preference is that we would all use byghan as the formal word but inevitably a minority of people will favour unvoicing the gh - that's fine - nobody has to pronounce every thing exactly the same as long as its understandable. For those people in informal reported speech - I can't see a problem of using an apostrophe to indicate missing letters. After all we already do this with a wre'ta.
I'm also with you on KK 4 SWF. I will be bringing up my child to speak and read Cornish and there are precious few children's books in any form - the most Common being Kemmyn. I spent most of yesterday morning translating Welsh and English ones with the aim of sticking the Cornish words over the top!
However the 'First Thousand Words in CORNISH' in kemmyn is excellent and is useful for kids and learners. I also understand that Peter Rabbit is also going to be re-published.
I don't think ordinary Cornish folk think the language and lack of movement in it, to be a "laughing stock". That is the retort which the many detractors of our language, some of whom, appear on this board, employ. The constant attempts to belittle a recognised minority language and its proponents, as well as, the references to language users as being capable of acts of terrorism (CF "The Skipper") are manifestations of the jealousy which such people hold. These are, I am afraid visible signs of the politics of envy!
However, personally, as I don't aspire to any particular form of the Cornish language, I would like to see independent academics - liguists, language planners, lexicographers, applied liguistic exerts etc, etc - employed to sort out the arguments over Cornish once and for all. If left to themselves, the current community will squabble and quarrel for the next five hundred years - even then, there would be no guarantee of an conclusion!
Finally, I note the plethora of comments posted here by those who have significant knowledge of the various forms of Cornish. How many of them are qualified to pass linguistic judgement on the various orthographies?
I would be better placed to make up my mind over which form to use if I knew the qualifications of those who make regular comments of a linguistic nature on this forum. If posters don't mind, please would they give some details?
When I have trouble with my water-supply, I ask a qualified plumber to sort it out. When I have problems with my health, I ask a doctor or other professional to come up with a diagnosis and prescription. Presumably, I would be right to consult a linguistic expert in the event of a dispute over three or more orthographies of Cornish?
If you read this thread you'll see that there are moves afoot to decide on a single form by May, which, although it's drawn out too long IMHO, is at least going in the right direction. There will be an announcement in August about a conference in September when things will be set in motion.
The problem with consulting "experts" in Kernewek is that too many of them are biased and won't therefore give you an objective opinion as to which is the best form to use. As for me, I started learning Cornish in 1998 and have passed all four of the Kesva an Taves Kernewek exams. I learnt Kemmyn just because that was what was being taught there, and while I think that Kemmyn has enough in its favour for it to be the best candidate for a SWF, I don't have an axe to grind about the other systems. Whatever comes out of the process, I'd like to see a phonemic (regular, WYSIWYS (what you see is what you say!)) spelling system to be adopted.
I am simply saying that I would like to see independent linguistic experts take charge over the process of standardisation. Those experts do not need to be able to speak or read Cornish. In fact, it would be best if they had no knowledge of Cornish.
I am afraid that the current "we know best" approach to the language under the present arrangement, where amateurs (I use the word respectfully) seem to be in charge, is not good enough to ensure that an academically sound orthography is identified in the process.
The input of language enthusiasts is, of course, important. The input of expert opinion of the various orthographic forms is equally important.
Having said that, in order to be objective, we need the input of unbiased academics, hopefully untainted by the orthographic quarrel, to ensure that the correct decision is made.
The key point here is "independent linguistic experts" as they are the only ones qualified to make sound, unbiased academic linguistic judgements on Cornish orthography.
You would not expect the government to put the national railway network under the charge of train-spotters, would you? So why is there such a keen desire for the future of our Cornish language to be put in the charge of amateurs?
The CLP seem to have an appropriate Raod map in place. People on this forum comment from there own experiences in use of the Cornish Language.
I've been using Cornish for well over 20 years but I don't pretend to be an expert (For example I only have 2 formal qualifications in the language - and my grammer is rubbish). I certainly have my own preferences as do other users and that is fair enough.
I don't think people should readily discount the present Cornish language community who have put great efforts into usuage of the language whatever spelling form - if we want the language to progress we need the support of as many people as possible and I think most people are keen to see the establishment of a SWF so we can push the language out into the wider community. What would be a disaster would be if something was devised that was really far from what the majority of people are using at the moment.
One of the biggest gripes by unified people in the 1980s (and fair enough) was that by switching to kemmyn they would be dumping all the existing unified printed books - this is even more the case now where we have had over 20 years of book and other material production.
What Cornish needs more than anything else is as much stability as possible.
Hunlef
What do you mean by an 'academically sound orthography'?
There seems to be two philosophies which affect the orthography debate.
On one hand to attempt to keep the orthography as close as possible to the 16th century (or later texts) with all their idiosyncracies and lack of clarity and try to come up with some form of standardisation (unified, ucr and late)
Or to take the historic texts as the base and standardize around the sounds making it as phonemic as possible to aid new learners. (kemmyn).
In reality the textual differences are very limited - the difference is that the phonemic approach helps learners with an in-built guide to pronunciation and spelling. It makes the language more regular and therefore easier to learn more quickly. With Cornish's lack of speakers this is an important consideration if we want to get people as fluent as possible and that is very difficult under present circumstances.
Modern Welsh is largely phonemic, whereas English isn't and is a very diificult language for beginners.
Which is why many of us want a phonemic based system (not necessarily KK) but if you've tried to learn Cornish with unified and then used kemmyn its a bit like switching from a morris minor to a racing car. - That is my own personal opinion from my own experience.
I don't think anyone seriously thinks we will go back to Unified with the changes that have occurred over the last twenty years so lets hope we move forward with something phonemic to help learners.
I am not denying anyone the right to hold their view or opinion. Neither am I denying them the right to input that opinion into the process of standardisation of the Cornish language. Furthermore, I am not denying the language community its role in that process either. These should all be principal inputs into the process. That notwithstanding, amateur opinions, important as they are, must come secondary to the advice of academic, linguistic experts and language planners, just as in the case of other languages which have done through standardisation.
I'm glad you mentioned "disaster", BTW. The biggest disaster would be the formal adoption of an orthography that was not academically sound. Looking ahead to the future and the advent of a Cornish faculty on the Tremough Campus, it is easy to envisage that any form of Cornish adopted by mere amateurs now, could be criticised severely once it is subject to the appropriate level of academic analysis. The potential for great harm is significant.
The facts that, at the moment, one orthography is numerically dominant and that there are more books available in that orthography are not sound academic reasons for endorsing that orthography and serve only to deflect attention away from the point of a standardisation process which is to identify an academically correct form of the language suitable for public use.
One should also bear in mind that the current numbers of Cornish speakers is relatively low and now is the best time to settle arguments rather than bottle them up for the future. I would not be happy with a form of language cobbled together by enthusiasts free from the rigours of academic scrutiny and which could be open to criticism in the future. It would be, in my opinion, very difficult to restore the image of our language at this point, bearing in mind "The Skipper's" voracity to criticise and his desire for the people of Cornwall to be better supplied with more stretchers, ambulances, toothbrushes and aspirins. It doesn't make sense to leave such an important process in the charge of amateurs.
CJenkin - you have already stated that you are not an expert in this field.
You are perfectly entitled to hold your personal opinion but you are not qualified (and neither are they on the CLP) to give judgement on an issue which relates to the implementation of government policy. Governments seek the advice of experts, not amateurs before policy is implemented.
Why is it that responsibility for implementing the terms of the Charter in respect of the Cornish language has been given to language enthusiasts?
The points you raise have academic foundations and can only be addressed by academics.
Linguistic Academic - one who is qualified in linguistics and who has a record of published work.
'academically sound orthography' - one which has been subject to academic analysis by linguistic experts or academics and which meets with their approval.
If phonemic KK is so good (and I am not saying it isn't) then there can be no reason for not submitting it for academic scrutiny, along with the other orthographies.
Did i say I was qualified or that I want to make a judgement? No. So Cut out the crap and don't be so aggressive - we all want the Cornish language to move forward and the best way is with concensus amongst its users.
On what criteria will it meet their approval?
Either a historic or a phonemic principle would be valid linguistically but who would decide what approach would be appropraite for the Cornish language
e.g. the welsh or the english model?
This is not an academic choice it is a choice based on approaches to language learning.
Who says people are against KK being scrutinised by academics ? As has been said before a process is being established by the CLP towards a SWF. Undoubtedly as part of that process independent linguistic experts will be consulted.
You are naive if you think that developing the language relies on the advice of linguistic experts only.
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