IS THIS HOW TO BE PRO-CORNISH?

Topical debate
Sentinel
Posts: 835
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:35 am

Post by Sentinel » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:27 pm

On the Indigenous Cornish? thread Coady, who is a voluminous, and hence highly influential, contributor to the C24 site, was accused of pretending to be adding to debate in an objective way, but actually working to a fixed agenda. This type of person might be looked upon in some quarters as being a fifth columnist clandestinely working to damage the aims and objectives of pro-Cornish activists. If this is the case, it needs to be exposed.

By way of response, he claims to have changed his beliefs and opinions over the year he has been visiting the site. As this is a public forum, the public have a right to know not only if his numerous attacks on Cornish activists and activities are justified, but also whether ot not his latest [mitigating] claim stands up to examination.

So Coady, please indicate which of the following beliefs and opinions expressed by you throughout this last year have altered over the course of that same year?

HIS OWN WORDS.

THE PHILOSOPHY: “What you see as me 'disparaging and belittling my cultural background' is merely me challenging the accepted orthodoxies of some Cornwall24 participants, who to my mind tend sometimes toward being unable to see the wood for the trees. MUST I believe that the Cornish Tartan is valid and authentic? Am I wrong to have pointed out that the very language is reconstructed, and that it seems in the nature of Cornwall 'enthusiasts' to argue amongst themselves? I've never blandly and placidly accepted things other people say, just because they think I should.” Then later “To some, this has made me seem 'anti Cornish'...but questioning supposed ' evidence' and generally accepted 'facts' is second nature to me.”

FAIR ENOUGH, BUT HIS APPROACH DOES NOT APPEAR TO EXTEND TO QUESTIONING EVERY ASPECT OF ENGLISH HISTORY, EXAMINING THE ORIGINS OF ENGLISH CULTURAL TRADITIONS OR CHALLENGING ACCEPTED ENGLISH ORTHODOXIES:-

REGARDS THE STATE’S TREATMENT OF CORNWALL AND CORNISH ISSUES: “My favourite "Conspiracy Theory" is the one about Cornwall having been the target of a sustained conspiracy of persecution by England for the last thousand years or so.”

ON HIS FAITH IN THE STATE ACTING WITHIN THE LAW: “While real terrorists have a completely free hand to break any law, lie, deceive, kill, maim etc as they see fit, we expect "The Government", "Intelligence Services" "the Police" to work within strict parameters, tied to act within the law.”

ON ATTEMPTS TO HIGHLIGHT CORNISH DISTINCTIVENESS: “This 'language' has no more worth than Esperanto or Klingon, and is less useful than Latin or Greek. AND I am as Cornish as granite and furze, but I get twitchy when I see people in gorsedd 'frocks', "Cornish tartan', and choosing to exclude people by speaking 'Kernewek.' and calling people like me "Quislings" etc etc AND I might be prepared to give some of my time and effort, BUT the day some "Kernewek" spouting tartan wearing embittered extremist turns up and insults me..i'm off”

AND: “Oh Come on...we can say it...the Gorsedd is unrepresentative of Cornwall, and largely irrelevant.”

AND AGAIN: “In a Britain (United Kingdom, remember?) of some 60 million or so people, the few thousand that understand some Cornish, and the few hundred who are fluent don't actually carry much weight, and nor should they. Am I the only Cornish person who finds the whole thing embarrasing? I dont WANT my county associated with a bunch of Druid copycats, or by fake tartan wearing eccentrics gibbering in their fave version of some dead language.”

ON CALLS FOR THE CROWN TO APOLOGISE TO CORNWALL FOR THE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION CAUSED BY 1549: ” What a perverse view on history.”

ON THE APPOINTMENT OF AN ENGLISHMAN, DESCRIBED BY SOME AS CORNISH AND USED BY THEM TO DEMONSTRATE CORNWALL’S COMPLETE INTEGRATION INTO ENGLAND: “ Well done Mr Vickery!”

ON ANSARI SAYING CORNISH CULTURE SHOULD BE EXCLUDED FROM SCHOOLS BECAUSE IT IS DANGEROUS: “Does it matter? Believing that EXCESSIVE loyalty to cultural backgrounds, race, origin etc can lead to hatred and violence is a reasonable viewpoint. “

ON CORNWALL’S EARLY HISTORY: “I suppose you don't consider the Norman conquerors marching into Cornwall and taking over ownership of it as 'officially being made part of England' then. Bizarrely, everyone else it happened to thought it was a pretty strong clue that they were Norman England now!”

AND “The pre Norman English dominated Cornwall, the Normans did the same. England treated it as its own for centuies. Cornwall continued to be treated as part of England, usually, it seems with little complaint. That Cornwall was often identified as a distinct 'Entity' I do not dispute at all, but if from that anyone wishes to extrapolate that Cornwall was in any SIGNIFICANT way independent from England or English then they have a big hill to climb”.

WORD FOR WORD REPITITION OF ANGLO PROPAGANDA: “You bleat that there is no evidence that "Cornwall was part of England in 1337" Have you forgotten that King Athelstan of England defeated and subjugated Cornwall in the year 936? Look up the meaning of 'subjugated'Its the 'little details' like that, that you so often 'miss out' in your 'lectures' that makes your version of history seem more like a badly written Tolkien story. Marhak, there are many references to what Athelstan did, or didn't do. Your accurate version is the same as in Wikipedia, but there's more... after driving the Cornish out of Exeter and back into Cornwall in 936, (and was particularly vicious at exterminating the Cornish in Exeter,)and as you say 'defining the boundaries' as the Tamar, ( bit of a defeat wouldn't you say?) The Cornish again got restless, so a few years later, Athelstan marched the length of Cornwall unopposed, crossed to Scilly sorted them out, and marched back through. You bleat that there is no evidence that "Cornwall was part of England in 1337" Have you forgotten that King Athelstan of England defeated and subjugated Cornwall in the year 936? Look up the meaning of 'subjugated'Its the 'little details' like that, that you so often 'miss out' in your 'lectures' that makes your version of history seem more like a badly written Tolkien story. Marhak, there are many references to what Athelstan did, or didn't do. Your accurate version is the same as in Wikipedia, but there's more... after driving the Cornish out of Exeter and back into Cornwall in 936, (and was particularly vicious at exterminating the Cornish in Exeter,)and as you say 'defining the boundaries' as the Tamar, ( bit of a defeat wouldn't you say?) The Cornish again got restless, so a few years later, Athelstan marched the length of Cornwall unopposed, crossed to Scilly sorted them out, and marched back through.”

AS MOUTHPIECE FOR THE DUKE’s WEBSITE: “This is Cornwall (the "County") as a Duchy, from the Tamar to Lands End, the title for the geographical thing. The "Duchy of Cornwall ESTATE" is the business arm. Names are very similar, but actually two different things”

ON CORNWALL’S LATEST ROYAL DEPENDENT: “I rather LIKE Camilla Windsor. More appropriate to His Nibs and to Cornwall than the Duchess we had foisted on us before!”

ON THE STANNARY PARLIAMENTS ATTEMPTS TO DRAW ATTENTION TO THE STATE BRANDING CORNISH HERITAGE AS ENGLISH HERITAGE: “The 'sign kidnapping' fiasco, ...sad old gits nicking signs”

AND “The idea of a bunch of dopey middle aged nationalists, striking a blow for Cornwall by stealing a few signs tickled the funny bones of many of us, and really, no one (except them) took it seriously. In fact many true Cornish people thought it embarrasing to have these twits claiming to speak/act on behalf of Cornwall. Why should I waste time on the DETAILS of the silly trial of the dopey CSP sign nickers? My point, made more than once now was that they were daft, but funny, and ultimately damaging to Cornwall's image.”

ON CORNISH ORIGINS: “My other point, voiced before, was that there is nothing magical about the Celts, they were just one of the cultures that was, for a time, the dominant culture of Cornwall, not the first, not the last.”

WHEN THE CORNISH COMPLAIN ABOUT ENGLISH OPPRESSION, COADY STANDS UP FOR THE RIGHTS OF STONEAGE PEOPLE: “Are you sure that the Celts were the indigenous people of the British Isles? They, (or at least their culture) might have bee invaders who moved in on the Stone Age natives who had inhabited Britain after the last Ice age.”

AND: “I am very 'uncomfortable' with all this 'Celtic' business. Remember that there were natives in Cornwall and the rest of Britain for thousands of years BEFORE either Celts (or Celtic culture) came to Britain. "The Celts" were just another invading group or culture, not especially better or worse than any of the others, and I'm not really certain why some people seem to want to cling to ideas of 'Celticness'. I suspect that its all a bit 'romantic', and know that its historical basis is a bit 'hazy' and I'm not SURE that it will do the Cornish cause any good in the long term.”

ON CORNISH DIFFERENCE: “Also, probably to the disappointment of some on here, the results didn't show a clean break at the Tamar, and a couple of times referred to Cornwall AND Devon as being high in DNA references to early British..”

ON THE CORNISH ASSEMBLY: “Groan....Get REAL, The Assembly would be made up of the same old dears we have now!”

AND: “Let us in Cornwall cleave to one of the major parties, preferably the one which is going to be in power for a few years, so that our voices can be heard by people who CAN do what we ask!”

ON THE CORNISH ASSEMBLY PETITION: “Without wishing to detract from anything you both say, I DO wish people would be more careful about the "50,000" who signed a petition for a Cornish Assembly... even the dopiest person can do their sums and work out that that means 450,000 people DIDN'T sign the petition....people can and will draw obvious conclusions from that. "I" hear what you say, but an impartial person COULD say "50,000 FOR...450,000 AGAINST"...my point is that its not something to crow about TOO much.”

AND JUST TO HELP THE ‘PUB EXPERT’: “I can just hear the "Pub Expert" saying "only one in ten people signed up for it, just 10%"

ON SWERDA: “I think we have to consider that many, many people might actually be IN FAVOUR of SOME of the projects the SWRDA are pushing.”

ON THE BBC’S IDEA FOR ESTABLISHING A DEVON COUNTY FLAG TO RIVAL, AND DENUDE THE STATUS, OF THE CORNISH NATIONAL FLAG: “Well, I've had a good think. I don't think that Cornwall, having used the flag of St. Piran for quite some time now, can really complain about a neighbouring area going for something similar. Theirs may, or may not, stand the test of time. We'll just have to seeI don't think it's a rip off, but it could well have been INSPIRED by the simple yet effective Piran's flag.” AND “Let them have their flag with our blessing, it's different enough from ours, and "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".”

ON MEBYON CORNWALL: “Now then..."Mebyon Kernow"..."Sons of Cornwall" ....what a bad name for the 21st Century, reeking of men in suits and trilby hats, having meetings in the pre-television age in smoky back rooms of pubs and church halls!....55 years ago! A good name for then, but not now! You emphasise more than once that I am speaking from a personal perspective, BUT it's the perspective of a Cornish person with a fair education who lives in Cornwall yet doesnt support MK . There are tens of thousand like me, and more non Cornish, who ALL want a better deal for Cornwall, but are politically savvy and can see no appeal in MK or traditionalist politics.”

ON ENGLISH NATIONALIST CALLS TO ENGENDER ENGLISHNESS INTO SOCIETY: “and what does it matter to us if theres a holiday granted for St George's day.....Bring on as many holidays as possible!”

ON USE OF THE HISTORIC CORNISH WORD FOR CORNWALL: “Fair point Shaz, but on every world map that's what its called, and those amongst the thronging millions of world citizens that know or care about this part of the world, its most widely known by far as Cornwall. Its just few thousand or so romantics who insist on calling it Kernow. AND “Its simple, I am an English speaker, and the word for Kernow in my language is Cornwall.”

ON THE CORNISH LANGUAGE: “What invented language would that be, arthur? Do tell, I'm all ears? Oh Flamm..you know,.....that kernewek stuff......Nowhere near as much fun as Klingon!”

AND “Ha! If it was a REAL language we wouldn't need "very well respected linguists/language historians as chairmen and of Nicholas Wiliams who is the only professional Celtic linguist applying rigorous academic practices to the Cornish language." We'd just speak it!”

AND “I know my history, and know it well, but for me it is a means of looking forward, rather than to stand, stupefied, looking backwards and trying to speak a dead and irrelevant language. You are welcome to your opinions, and I am happy that you get a few thousand for your research and arguments, but I believe you will never get majority support. it's probably great fun, but please don't take it too seriously, and I hope you will not try to impose it upon me or my Cornish children.”

FINALLY: “I suggest if you ever get more funding for Cornish that it's paid in mine Tokens, which are like the language, quaint, but obsolete, and of no real use.”

ON LANGUAGE FUNDING: “Its strange to think that there are more Chinese Speakers and Polish speakers in Cornwall than Cornish speakers. It brings home the reality of how few fluent Cornish speakers there are.”

ON THE ABSENCE OF CORNISH HISTORY IN SCOOLS: “I was taught about Cornish history in school, and my children have too, and by teachers of English origin, who sometimes seem keener on it than local born teachers!... all this in Hayle, Penzance, and St Just.” And “I actually WAS taught about the Cornish rebellions in school, and the information is freely available..whats the big issue? Is it that perhaps it isnt being taught with any bias?...or perhaps it isnt being used to instil a sense of injustice.”

AND: “I don't think our HISTORY has been erased , I thought that was pretty well recorded”

ON CORNISH PEOPLE WHO STAND UP FOR THEIR RIGHTS: “Who is to say that the "Kernow Taliban" Types are right, and that the more moderate, but deeply loyal and committed Cornish people are wrong??”

ON THOSE WHO DIED FOR THE CAUSE: “Why this fixation on two failed rebellions five hundred years ago? We were well thrashed, and the leaders were executed..hardly glorious, is it? When I WAS TAUGHT IT IN SCHOOL I felt embarrased that my ancestors had been so daft as to get led to their doom against a clearly more advanced organisation and army by some puffed up rabble rousers...how stupid was that?”

STILL DOING IT TODAY: Even his most latest post undermines Cornish distinctiveness. COADY: “What happened to Glasney College was not particular to Cornwall or Cornish issues.” So, according to Coady, Devon, Somerset, Essex, East Anglia, Hampshire etc all had colleges which acted as focal points for their own language and culture.

ON THOSE WHO SAY THAT HE IS DUPLICITOUS: “Someone puts a critical viewpoint and the Kernewek Taliban are down his/her throat like shitehawks after chips!”

ON HOW TO CONDUCT ONESELF DURING DEBATE: “I still live in the real world, where people are NOT backward or inward looking, they generally do not have any time for the XXXXXX brand of navel gazing or masturbatory self indulgent introspection and XXXXXXX…. you snivelling crawling toady!”

ON PRESENTATION: A couple of days ago Coady said “When anyone in the world searches "Cornwall" on, say, Google, one of your posts may crop up...is that really the International promotion that Cornish interests need?”

AND BECAUSE I DREW ATTENTION TO COADY ATTACKING THE CORNISH INTERESTS: “You are the worst sort of bad news, and all regular users here can see it. You are a boil on the fundament of everything Cornish.”

ON GUIDANCE TO OTHER FORUM USERS: “Mike, Impartial people read this forum, with open minds, prepared to be informed. All posters OUGHT to keep that in mind....”

No doubt I am not the only one awaiting a response.

In the meantime, still feel justified in flying that flag beside each entry you make?


We live in interesting times.


Fancyabrew
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:50 pm

Post by Fancyabrew » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:42 pm

Actually I think the title of the post should be is this how to be pathetic

Why do you and your mate insist on trying to bully and belittle other posters, who might, God forbid, not agree with the stuff you come out with, which on the whole make you look like a pair of fools to any fair minded person who might stumble on this site. Just for once in your life can you actually respect other peoples views?

Angofbew
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Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 1:47 pm

Post by Angofbew » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:00 pm


fancyabrew said:
Actually I think the title of the post should be is this how to be pathetic

Why do you and your mate insist on trying to bully and belittle other posters, who might, God forbid, not agree with the stuff you come out with, which on the whole make you look like a pair of fools to any fair minded person who might stumble on this site. Just for once in your life can you actually respect other peoples views?




A big touch of Kettle calling Pot here one thinks.

Fancyabrew
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Post by Fancyabrew » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:07 pm

when have I ever bullied another poster?

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:27 pm

I won't be as dismissive as some on Coady's point of view. He has asked pointed questions and, by his own admission, has altered his view on many topics because of the answers he got.

I'll take issue with him on two historical points only for now. He says that Athelstan subjugated and conquered Cornwall. Where's the historical refer ence that says that? (Coady's not alone here - some so-called professional historians claim that Cornwall was conquered by Egbert a hundred years earlier but the only sources we have to those times say no such thing). That Athelstan marched down through Cornwall and conquered Scilly is, I'm afraid, pure myth (like the Phoenicians trading directly with Cornwall) There are no records of the time to show that Athelstan moved any further west than Exeter and the whole thing is based upon the alleged St Buryan charter (which is viewed by the majority of historians as being a forgery).

Fancyabrew
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:50 pm

Post by Fancyabrew » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:48 pm

Not against free speech Mike, but what I find a bit off is the constant bullying of people who don't share Hun's or Sentinals views, it is a constant trait of theirs, just about every post they do has some snide undertone to it. They put themselves up as being somehow more Cornish than others, Coady strikes me as being pretty dam Cornish to me and proud of it just as I am.

Fancyabrew
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Post by Fancyabrew » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:06 pm

I don't disagree about the knowledge of Hun of Sentinel, but it’s the way they go about things, they’re aggressive and it’s off putting and very negative. I hope neither of them work in a public facing job they’d soon alienate people with their attitude. There are ways of saying things, the old phrase make friend and influence come to mind!

Frenchie
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Post by Frenchie » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:12 pm


So Coady, please indicate which of the following beliefs and opinions expressed by you throughout this last year have altered over the course of that same year?



Seems like a fair question to me..
The word please is even included.

Maybe Sentinel is finding Coady's reasonings slightly confusing, I do quite often.

Sentinel
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Post by Sentinel » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:53 pm

CHRIS SAYS: “I expect Coady is as proud to be Cornish as you are and by his own definition is pro Cornish. Are you suggesting that Coady is actually anti-Cornish or just that he does not attach the same importance to Cornwall's history as yourself? Whatever the point, these are all opinions about Cornwall and as such welcome to be aired here. If they are untrue, then that can be raised by way of a response.”

That is not my point. My point is that he set out to deliberately mislead the public by making his points whilst hiding behind a number of false premises.

The first false premise is that he is simply “challenging the accepted orthodoxies of some Cornwall24 participants”. This would be fine if he challenged both Cornish and English orthodoxies. He does nothing of the sort. He challenges, and by doing so misrepresents, smears and trashes, only Cornish orthodoxies whilst at the same time reinforcing, and strengthening English orthodoxies. So whilst his declared intention is to challenge accepted orthodoxies, what he actually does is strengthen English orthodoxies by rubbishing Cornish orthodoxies. If this is what he wants to do, fine, but at least come clean about it.

The second false premise [used to avoid charges of being anti-Cornish] is to holler, “I am as Cornish as granite and furze”. I take the view that you cannot claim to be Cornish if you set out to denude, denigrate, undermine or destroy nearly everything that makes up the Cornish identity.

The third false premise is the one where he offers himself up to be pro-Cornish. His record is one of sneering at, and belittling, those who make efforts to promote Cornish distinctiveness, doing what he can to undermine the Cornish identity and being first in line to regurgitate, as if it were fact, propaganda intended to denude our status. This undermines Cornish people’s self-belief and weakens the Cornish identity. This in turn strengthens Cornwall’s English identity, which is, by definition, a pro-English activity. As the English identity is an alternative and competing identity, he is being pro-English and anti-Cornish.

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