Religion?

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Coady
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Post by Coady » Tue May 01, 2007 5:43 pm

I suspect that most secular moral/ethical codes will have inevitably been influenced (perhaps even unconsciously) by the past two thousand years of Jewish/Christian influence on European laws and culture.....
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Allister
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Post by Allister » Tue May 01, 2007 5:49 pm

Morals are the creation of our evolution, both biologically and culturally. Human morals serve to protect and aid our survival. Anything that goes against our survival can be seen as immoral, such as homosexuality, fortunatly our cultures have evolved to value freedom of expression and choice and therefore seeing homosexuality as immoral is no longer accepted or tolerated.

KingMark
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Post by KingMark » Tue May 01, 2007 6:57 pm

When 'God sent his son' we should remember that Jesus was God (made into man) and I'm sorry but the New Testament is not myths. Any credible historian will tell you that Jesus existed. Non believers love to cast doubt on the gospels, but there is far more evidence that these texts are genuine than other historic texts that remain unchallenged.

What I find really exciting is the great swing over the last ten or fifteen years back towards all things spiritual. More and more people are searching for that something else. I am very happy that I found what I was missing some years ago and I hope that others find something to. What is sad from a Christian's point of view is that we have what we consider the best story to tell, but the 'Church' has done a really bad job telling it!!

I suspect that we will see the death of organised religion in coming years, which will enable people to rediscover a true faith.


Joaniewillett
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Post by Joaniewillett » Wed May 02, 2007 9:39 am

I dont think that anyone is disputing that jesus existed, just that he was the son of god, or god himself or whatever.

And havent the gospels been subjected to 2 millenia of copywriting and translation?

I also dont think that current searches for spiritual meaning always have a fat lot to do with christianity, but often seek out their perception of the ancient spiritualities that christianity replaced.

Coady, our culture and ideals have also been heavily influenced by islam and the ancient greeks. It was the islamic scholars that were in the ascendency a couple of centuries ago whilst the 'west' was in the dark ages.

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Post by Fulub-le-Breton » Wed May 02, 2007 12:19 pm


KingMark said:
As per my original post, I'd be interested in the source and authority of any secular moral code



And I would be interested to know why I should choose your religion over any other? Your faith is contingent on where you were born as is everyone elses so what makes it correct?

Your question is a tail wagging the dog and simple wrong headed. We are born with a moral instinct which enables us to live in groups and communities, religion has pulled off the trick of claiming to be the source of this morality.


Emmet_Guy
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Post by Emmet_Guy » Wed May 02, 2007 4:50 pm

You say that like it's a fact.

I don't say "religion" is the source of morality (I am 100% behind KM's original post on why it's a misleading term)... But the fact that human societies the world over (by and large) adhere to fairly similar moral codes? That's evidence for God, absolutely.

Yeah, we're born with a conscience - I just say that's God's handiwork.

(Rather than saying that you derive it from organised religion).

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Post by Emmet_Guy » Wed May 02, 2007 4:56 pm

By the way, speaking of being wrong-headed:

"Morals are the creation of our evolution, both biologically and culturally"

How can evolution create anything?

Natural selection can make it statistically more likely that a race displaying a moral code would thrive, but it can't originate that moral code - any more than a primeval horse can notice nice leaves on a high branch and DECIDE to become a giraffe.

Evolution, as a theory is just a statistical/entropical game played with random numbers over a very long time. Yet people always talk about it in terms of design and creation, or like there's an "ability to evolve" (to quote one popular car commercial).

Which is because, deep down, they kind of recognise that things were designed...

KingMark
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Post by KingMark » Wed May 02, 2007 5:04 pm

F-l-B, I am not here to tell you that you should choose 'my' religion. I feel that I am here to make people aware of Christianity and if they are interested to tell them the difference it has made in my life. It is a shame when people choose to ignore true Christian faith because 'church' and 'religion' has got in the way.

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Post by Emmet_Guy » Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

KM - true. Well said.

And also a pity that people can quite openly say: "ooh, have you tried homeopathy?" or "my chiropractor is great" without fear of contradiction - but when you tell them about the difference being a Christian has made to you, that's suddenly out of bounds and you're "pushing religion down their throat"... or (worse if anything) "I'm glad it works for you, but it's not for me."

It bugs me that Christians are seen as somehow foolish, dishonest, deluded or gullible - like we never thought about it, or challenged it, or actually went through a process of weighing it up and deciding it might be true - or evaluating it as you get more involved.

Which is genuinely not said to get into an argument/confrontation with anyone here - it's just a comment about the lazy stereotypes Christians face every day.

Did anyone see "Waterloo Road" last week? Sheesh...

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Post by Angofbew » Wed May 02, 2007 6:25 pm


KingMark said:
F-l-B, I am not here to tell you that you should choose 'my' religion. I feel that I am here to make people aware of Christianity and if they are interested to tell them the difference it has made in my life. It is a shame when people choose to ignore true Christian faith because 'church' and 'religion' has got in the way.



KingMark, YOU cannot tell anyone to choose a Religion that has been proved to be the concept of Human minds and not that of any Devine Creator. Jesus was NOT God, he said so himself. When you actually look at the New Testement, there is very little to tell you of a Divine Jesus, most of that comes after him when the various Christian Churches were fighting for Power. Fundamentalist Christians are as bad as Fundamentalist Muslims, you are the scurge of Civilistaion. You are almost always wrong and never listen to 'Right'. This site is not the place for your distorted ideas on Christianity.
Human Morals are very little different to how other Animals interreact. All Animals on this Planet have their Rules which they live by, or Die by. It is the way groups survive, and in this Humans are no different.


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Allister
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Post by Allister » Wed May 02, 2007 6:49 pm


How can evolution create anything?



evolution works by a process of mutation. obviously there is no single purpose or goal or conciousness in evolution, like gravity.

evolution by natural selection in an abstract sense creates different lifeforms. the creature that lives long enough to breed will pass on its genes and in this way certain traits and biological blueprints are passed from one generation to the next.


Natural selection can make it statistically more likely that a race displaying a moral code would thrive, but it can't originate that moral code



no it doesn't create the moral code. if bashing people over the head was the best form of survival then that would become, eventually, a moral code. but it isn't the best way for human beings to function in order to procreate. Humans are a group animal.



any more than a primeval horse can notice nice leaves on a high branch and DECIDE to become a giraffe.



obviously. but if the top branch food is better and a primeal horse with a mutation can reach that food source, eventually, the that trait will become the dominant gene in the species.


Which is because, deep down, they kind of recognise that things were designed..



human technology, from an early axe to an early decoration is created by humans. when looking out into the world things look created and we assign a human like figure as their creator.

Emmet_Guy
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Post by Emmet_Guy » Wed May 02, 2007 9:42 pm

What the...?!


angofbew said:
YOU cannot tell anyone to choose a Religion that has been proved to be the concept of Human minds and not that of any Devine Creator.



I'm sorry... I and hundreds of millions of Christians around the world must have missed that event. "Proved" by who, when and where, please?


angofbew said:
Jesus was NOT God, he said so himself.



Really? Where?


angofbew said:
When you actually look at the New Testement, there is very little to tell you of a Divine Jesus



I take it you mean apart from Matthew 26; Mark 1; Acts 2; Philippians 2; Colossians 1; Hebrews 1; Hebrews 13; 1 John 5; Revelation 22...


angofbew said:
When the various Christian Churches were fighting for Power.



Which various Churches? When? Could you be more specific? Is this actually based on factual knowledge, or just a vague misunderstanding of history based upon Dan Brown and others?


angofbew said:
You are the scurge of Civilistaion.



Crikey, don't pull any punches will you? Just say it like you think it. You don't think that's just a LITTLE bit offensive?


angofbew said:
You are almost always wrong and never listen to 'Right'.



See all the above. I'm perfectly happy to have a sensible discussion about things, but you can't argue with assumptions and hearsay. The atheist/agnostic's own suggestion is usually that " wrong" and "right" have yet to be proven, and I guess we won't know for absolutely sure until after we're dead... so from that point of view all you can judge is the willingness to listen to the other point of view... and I can't say you're exactly scoring highly on that front either, are you?


angofbew said:
This site is not the place for your distorted ideas on Christianity.



"Distorted" according to you know, if you'll forgive me, clearly doesn't know much about it...

...And I should probably also point out that this thread wasn't started by Christians, but an atheist saying, in effect "I think all religions are lies and all followers are stupid. What do you think?" All any of us have done is to offer our own observations, based upon our experience. Sorry to have dirupted the atheist backslapping with what are, after all, just our own honest views.

(Oh, and allister - evolution doesn't "work by" mutation. mutations just happen, and evolution, supposedly, just works upon it after it happens. it doesn't make mutations happen.)

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Coady
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Post by Coady » Wed May 02, 2007 10:00 pm


joaniewillett said:


Coady, our culture and ideals have also been heavily influenced by islam and the ancient greeks. It was the islamic scholars that were in the ascendency a couple of centuries ago whilst the 'west' was in the dark ages.



Check your history Joanie, "a couple of centuries ago" was 1807... and Islam as such never influenced Western Culture much, I think you mean pre Islamic Arabs, (a civilised and praiseworthy bunch)

That Britain was in the Dark Ages meant that it was influenced by very little at all.

Graham.
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KingMark
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Post by KingMark » Wed May 02, 2007 10:16 pm

Good response EG.
Angofbew seems to have missed the point that I was making, that people can only come to know God through developing that personal relationship. Not by being argued or persuaded into it. You can only gain such a relationship through being open and as you say challenging yourself.

On the subject of evolution... not too many realise that Darwin died a Christian!
<

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P_Trembath
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Post by P_Trembath » Wed May 02, 2007 10:37 pm


KingMark said:
On the subject of evolution... not too many realise that Darwin died a Christian!



I don't ever remember being told that Darwin was ever anything but a christian. Surly, he was born, lived, and died a christian. Apart from the fact that he proposed a theory that the christian establishment, at the time, disagreed with, I don't follow the relavance of that statement.
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