MKs BIGGEST PROBLEM

Topical debate
FreakoMbiko
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Post by FreakoMbiko » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:17 pm


Hunlef said:
[quote=FreakoMdumbo][quote=sentinel]After all the flak going on here, he still doesnt know what Cornish rights are being ignored!

Read back through the text you lazy wally.



Nobody has answered,still haven't.[/quote]

The Freak has, apparently, learnt much about Cornwall and the Cornish in the last 18 months. One might have thought that, in that time, he would have encountered information on the subject matter currently under discussion. Even if, in the unlikely event that he hasn't come across this topic in the past, he has little excuse now that much detail is available to him on this thread and elsewhere on the forum. Instead of engaging in serious discussion, poor old Freako has resorted to the time honoured practice of adopting the characters of the Fawlty Towers TV series. In this instant, it isn't the case that he is an example of the 'Don't mention the Cornish' MK genre of comic actors but more like the 'I know nothing' genre portrayed by the Spanish waiter, Manuel!
[/quote]

None of the above is true. I have remained rational and calm in the face of you trolly pith.

Can you please tell me, other than education, what Cornish rights are being abused or ignored?

I am guessing based on experience of your pointless vitriol, you wont answer...




Pfishwick
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Post by Pfishwick » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:23 pm


Who's asking pfishwick ?




"You can't have an isolated little Cornwall on its own"



It's a quote, more or less verbatim, from the John Angarrack radio interview, which I agree with. Meur ras Graham for making it available on the internet. 8-). Incidentally, substitute "England" for "Cornwall" and it's still true in my opinion.

Now Sentinel, all I meant by "I don't think that works" was about your comment regarding a homogenous Kernow. The FCPNM supports the particular while also recognising plurality - it's a compromise, but hey, life is a compromise ;-)

Much of the rest of your post, I agree with but:

the English already have a curriuculum that meets their needs.



Oh no we don't. The history syllabus doesn't mention the Britons or Gaels, and treats the Vikings as enemies, so therefore cannot properly represent either the history or the current population of NW England (where I'm from). It has problems across all of England as well. I see a common cause on that one :-).

More decentralised control over history education would help there I suggest, both in Kernow and elsewhere (including NW England) without however losing sight of the wider context.

In short, you're right about the UK government's racial/ethnic classification "scheme" if you can call it that. I can't stand having to call myself ethnically "White" because of a physical relatively pale complexion. :-x


Nos da,

Patrick




Hunlef
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Post by Hunlef » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:56 pm


FreakoMdumbo said:
[quote=Hunlef][quote=FreakoMdumbo][quote=sentinel]After all the flak going on here, he still doesnt know what Cornish rights are being ignored!

Read back through the text you lazy wally.



Nobody has answered,still haven't.[/quote]

The Freak has, apparently, learnt much about Cornwall and the Cornish in the last 18 months. One might have thought that, in that time, he would have encountered information on the subject matter currently under discussion. Even if, in the unlikely event that he hasn't come across this topic in the past, he has little excuse now that much detail is available to him on this thread and elsewhere on the forum. Instead of engaging in serious discussion, poor old Freako has resorted to the time honoured practice of adopting the characters of the Fawlty Towers TV series. In this instant, it isn't the case that he is an example of the 'Don't mention the Cornish' MK genre of comic actors but more like the 'I know nothing' genre portrayed by the Spanish waiter, Manuel!
[/quote]

None of the above is true. I have remained rational and calm in the face of you trolly pith.

Can you please tell me, other than education, what Cornish rights are being abused or ignored?

I am guessing based on experience of your pointless vitriol, you wont answer...
[/quote]
Manuel - you do tell a lot of fibs, don't you?

If you had the intelligence to have followed Sentinel's advice proffered earlier, you might have perused this thread for elements of the information you seek. Pfishwick provided some of the detail outlined in the Council of Europe's Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities and even provided the url where you could have downloaded the full document.

Since that operation is obviously beyond your limited capabilities, I am copying it for you to read and fully digest below.

I do hope that this response is 'vitriolic' enough for you. Please rest assured it will become so if you persist in your stupidity.

The member States of the Council of Europe and the other States, signatories to the present framework Convention,

Considering that the aim of the Council of Europe is to achieve greater unity between its members for the purpose of safeguarding and realising the ideals and principles which are their common heritage;

Considering that one of the methods by which that aim is to be pursued is the maintenance and further realisation of human rights and fundamental freedoms;

Wishing to follow-up the Declaration of the Heads of State and Government of the member States of the Council of Europe adopted in Vienna on 9 October 1993;

Being resolved to protect within their respective territories the existence of national minorities;

Considering that the upheavals of European history have shown that the protection of national minorities is essential to stability, democratic security and peace in this continent;

Considering that a pluralist and genuinely democratic society should not only respect the ethnic, cultural, linguistic and religious identity of each person belonging to a national minority, but also create appropriate conditions enabling them to express, preserve and develop this identity;

Considering that the creation of a climate of tolerance and dialogue is necessary to enable cultural diversity to be a source and a factor, not of division, but of enrichment for each society;

Considering that the realisation of a tolerant and prosperous Europe does not depend solely on co-operation between States but also requires transfrontier co-operation between local and regional authorities without prejudice to the constitution and territorial integrity of each State;

Having regard to the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms and the Protocols thereto;

Having regard to the commitments concerning the protection of national minorities in United Nations conventions and declarations and in the documents of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe, particularly the Copenhagen Document of 29 June 1990;

Being resolved to define the principles to be respected and the obligations which flow from them, in order to ensure, in the member States and such other States as may become Parties to the present instrument, the effective protection of national minorities and of the rights and freedoms of persons belonging to those minorities, within the rule of law, respecting the territorial integrity and national sovereignty of states;

Being determined to implement the principles set out in this framework Convention through national legislation and appropriate governmental policies,

Have agreed as follows:

Section I

Article 1

The protection of national minorities and of the rights and freedoms of persons belonging to those minorities forms an integral part of the international protection of human rights, and as such falls within the scope of international co-operation.

Article 2

The provisions of this framework Convention shall be applied in good faith, in a spirit of understanding and tolerance and in conformity with the principles of good neighbourliness, friendly relations and co-operation between States.

Article 3

Every person belonging to a national minority shall have the right freely to choose to be treated or not to be treated as such and no disadvantage shall result from this choice or from the exercise of the rights which are connected to that choice.
Persons belonging to national minorities may exercise the rights and enjoy the freedoms flowing from the principles enshrined in the present framework Convention individually as well as in community with others.
Section II

Article 4

The Parties undertake to guarantee to persons belonging to national minorities the right of equality before the law and of equal protection of the law. In this respect, any discrimination based on belonging to a national minority shall be prohibited.
The Parties undertake to adopt, where necessary, adequate measures in order to promote, in all areas of economic, social, political and cultural life, full and effective equality between persons belonging to a national minority and those belonging to the majority. In this respect, they shall take due account of the specific conditions of the persons belonging to national minorities.
The measures adopted in accordance with paragraph 2 shall not be considered to be an act of discrimination.
Article 5

The Parties undertake to promote the conditions necessary for persons belonging to national minorities to maintain and develop their culture, and to preserve the essential elements of their identity, namely their religion, language, traditions and cultural heritage.
Without prejudice to measures taken in pursuance of their general integration policy, the Parties shall refrain from policies or practices aimed at assimilation of persons belonging to national minorities against their will and shall protect these persons from any action aimed at such assimilation.
Article 6

The Parties shall encourage a spirit of tolerance and intercultural dialogue and take effective measures to promote mutual respect and understanding and co-operation among all persons living on their territory, irrespective of those persons' ethnic, cultural, linguistic or religious identity, in particular in the fields of education, culture and the media.
The Parties undertake to take appropriate measures to protect persons who may be subject to threats or acts of discrimination, hostility or violence as a result of their ethnic, cultural, linguistic or religious identity.
Article 7

The Parties shall ensure respect for the right of every person belonging to a national minority to freedom of peaceful assembly, freedom of association, freedom of expression, and freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

Article 8

The Parties undertake to recognise that every person belonging to a national minority has the right to manifest his or her religion or belief and to establish religious institutions, organisations and associations.

Article 9

The Parties undertake to recognise that the right to freedom of expression of every person belonging to a national minority includes freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas in the minority language, without interference by public authorities and regardless of frontiers. The Parties shall ensure, within the framework of their legal systems, that persons belonging to a national minority are not discriminated against in their access to the media.
Paragraph 1 shall not prevent Parties from requiring the licensing, without discrimination and based on objective criteria, of sound radio and television broadcasting, or cinema enterprises.
The Parties shall not hinder the creation and the use of printed media by persons belonging to national minorities. In the legal framework of sound radio and television broadcasting, they shall ensure, as far as possible, and taking into account the provisions of paragraph 1, that persons belonging to national minorities are granted the possibility of creating and using their own media.
In the framework of their legal systems, the Parties shall adopt adequate measures in order to facilitate access to the media for persons belonging to national minorities and in order to promote tolerance and permit cultural pluralism.
Article 10

The Parties undertake to recognise that every person belonging to a national minority has the right to use freely and without interference his or her minority language, in private and in public, orally and in writing.
In areas inhabited by persons belonging to national minorities traditionally or in substantial numbers, if those persons so request and where such a request corresponds to a real need, the Parties shall endeavour to ensure, as far as possible, the conditions which would make it possible to use the minority language in relations between those persons and the administrative authorities.
The Parties undertake to guarantee the right of every person belonging to a national minority to be informed promptly, in a language which he or she understands, of the reasons for his or her arrest, and of the nature and cause of any accusation against him or her, and to defend himself or herself in this language, if necessary with the free assistance of an interpreter.
Article 11

The Parties undertake to recognise that every person belonging to a national minority has the right to use his or her surname (patronym) and first names in the minority language and the right to official recognition of them, according to modalities provided for in their legal system.
The Parties undertake to recognise that every person belonging to a national minority has the right to display in his or her minority language signs, inscriptions and other information of a private nature visible to the public.
In areas traditionally inhabited by substantial numbers of persons belonging to a national minority, the Parties shall endeavour, in the framework of their legal system, including, where appropriate, agreements with other States, and taking into account their specific conditions, to display traditional local names, street names and other topographical indications intended for the public also in the minority language when there is a sufficient demand for such indications.
Article 12

The Parties shall, where appropriate, take measures in the fields of education and research to foster knowledge of the culture, history, language and religion of their national minorities and of the majority.
In this context the Parties shall inter alia provide adequate opportunities for teacher training and access to textbooks, and facilitate contacts among students and teachers of different communities.
The Parties undertake to promote equal opportunities for access to education at all levels for persons belonging to national minorities.
Article 13

Within the framework of their education systems, the Parties shall recognise that persons belonging to a national minority have the right to set up and to manage their own private educational and training establishments.
The exercise of this right shall not entail any financial obligation for the Parties.
Article 14

The Parties undertake to recognise that every person belonging to a national minority has the right to learn his or her minority language.
In areas inhabited by persons belonging to national minorities traditionally or in substantial numbers, if there is sufficient demand, the Parties shall endeavour to ensure, as far as possible and within the framework of their education systems, that persons belonging to those minorities have adequate opportunities for being taught the minority language or for receiving instruction in this language.
Paragraph 2 of this article shall be implemented without prejudice to the learning of the official language or the teaching in this language.
Article 15

The Parties shall create the conditions necessary for the effective participation of persons belonging to national minorities in cultural, social and economic life and in public affairs, in particular those affecting them.

Article 16

The Parties shall refrain from measures which alter the proportions of the population in areas inhabited by persons belonging to national minorities and are aimed at restricting the rights and freedoms flowing from the principles enshrined in the present framework Convention.

Article 17

The Parties undertake not to interfere with the right of persons belonging to national minorities to establish and maintain free and peaceful contacts across frontiers with persons lawfully staying in other States, in particular those with whom they share an ethnic, cultural, linguistic or religious identity, or a common cultural heritage.
The Parties undertake not to interfere with the right of persons belonging to national minorities to participate in the activities of non-governmental organisations, both at the national and international levels.
Article 18

The Parties shall endeavour to conclude, where necessary, bilateral and multilateral agreements with other States, in particular neighbouring States, in order to ensure the protection of persons belonging to the national minorities concerned.
Where relevant, the Parties shall take measures to encourage transfrontier co-operation.
Article 19

The Parties undertake to respect and implement the principles enshrined in the present framework Convention making, where necessary, only those limitations, restrictions or derogations which are provided for in international legal instruments, in particular the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, in so far as they are relevant to the rights and freedoms flowing from the said principles.

Section III

Article 20

In the exercise of the rights and freedoms flowing from the principles enshrined in the present framework Convention, any person belonging to a national minority shall respect the national legislation and the rights of others, in particular those of persons belonging to the majority or to other national minorities.

Article 21

Nothing in the present framework Convention shall be interpreted as implying any right to engage in any activity or perform any act contrary to the fundamental principles of international law and in particular of the sovereign equality, territorial integrity and political independence of States.

Article 22

Nothing in the present framework Convention shall be construed as limiting or derogating from any of the human rights and fundamental freedoms which may be ensured under the laws of any Contracting Party or under any other agreement to which it is a Party.

Article 23

The rights and freedoms flowing from the principles enshrined in the present framework Convention, in so far as they are the subject of a corresponding provision in the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms or in the Protocols thereto, shall be understood so as to conform to the latter provisions.

Section IV

Article 24

The Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe shall monitor the implementation of this framework Convention by the Contracting Parties.
The Parties which are not members of the Council of Europe shall participate in the implementation mechanism, according to modalities to be determined.
Article 25

Within a period of one year following the entry into force of this framework Convention in respect of a Contracting Party, the latter shall transmit to the Secretary General of the Council of Europe full information on the legislative and other measures taken to give effect to the principles set out in this framework Convention.
Thereafter, each Party shall transmit to the Secretary General on a periodical basis and whenever the Committee of Ministers so requests any further information of relevance to the implementation of this framework Convention.
The Secretary General shall forward to the Committee of Ministers the information transmitted under the terms of this article.
Article 26

In evaluating the adequacy of the measures taken by the Parties to give effect to the principles set out in this framework Convention the Committee of Ministers shall be assisted by an advisory committee, the members of which shall have recognised expertise in the field of the protection of national minorities.
The composition of this advisory committee and its procedure shall be determined by the Committee of Ministers within a period of one year following the entry into force of this framework Convention.
Section V

Article 27

This framework Convention shall be open for signature by the member States of the Council of Europe. Up until the date when the Convention enters into force, it shall also be open for signature by any other State so invited by the Committee of Ministers. It is subject to ratification, acceptance or approval. Instruments of ratification, acceptance or approval shall be deposited with the Secretary General of the Council of Europe.

Article 28

This framework Convention shall enter into force on the first day of the month following the expiration of a period of three months after the date on which twelve member States of the Council of Europe have expressed their consent to be bound by the Convention in accordance with the provisions of Article 27.
In respect of any member State which subsequently expresses its consent to be bound by it, the framework Convention shall enter into force on the first day of the month following the expiration of a period of three months after the date of the deposit of the instrument of ratification, acceptance or approval.
Article 29

After the entry into force of this framework Convention and after consulting the Contracting States, the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe may invite to accede to the Convention, by a decision taken by the majority provided for in Article 20.d of the Statute of the Council of Europe, any non-member State of the Council of Europe which, invited to sign in accordance with the provisions of Article 27, has not yet done so, and any other non-member State.
In respect of any acceding State, the framework Convention shall enter into force on the first day of the month following the expiration of a period of three months after the date of the deposit of the instrument of accession with the Secretary General of the Council of Europe.
Article 30

Any State may at the time of signature or when depositing its instrument of ratification, acceptance, approval or accession, specify the territory or territories for whose international relations it is responsible to which this framework Convention shall apply.
Any State may at any later date, by a declaration addressed to the Secretary General of the Council of Europe, extend the application of this framework Convention to any other territory specified in the declaration. In respect of such territory the framework Convention shall enter into force on the first day of the month following the expiration of a period of three months after the date of receipt of such declaration by the Secretary General.
Any declaration made under the two preceding paragraphs may, in respect of any territory specified in such declaration, be withdrawn by a notification addressed to the Secretary General. The withdrawal shall become effective on the first day of the month following the expiration of a period of three months after the date of receipt of such notification by the Secretary General.
Article 31

Any Party may at any time denounce this framework Convention by means of a notification addressed to the Secretary General of the Council of Europe.
Such denunciation shall become effective on the first day of the month following the expiration of a period of six months after the date of receipt of the notification by the Secretary General.
Article 32

The Secretary General of the Council of Europe shall notify the member States of the Council, other signatory States and any State which has acceded to this framework Convention, of:

any signature;
the deposit of any instrument of ratification, acceptance, approval or accession;
any date of entry into force of this framework Convention in accordance with Articles 28, 29 and 30;
any other act, notification or communication relating to this framework Convention.
In witness whereof the undersigned, being duly authorised thereto, have signed this framework Convention.

Done at Strasbourg, this 1st day of February 1995, in English and French, both texts being equally authentic, in a single copy which shall be deposited in the archives of the Council of Europe. The Secretary General of the Council of Europe shall transmit certified copies to each member State of the Council of Europe and to any State invited to sign or accede to this framework Convention.

FreakoMbiko
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Post by FreakoMbiko » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:12 pm

Can you please tell me, other than education, what Cornish rights are being abused or ignored?

One line, not a tome.

Its 2008

Hunlef
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Post by Hunlef » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:30 am

Now, having taken the trouble to trawl up the information, please do me the honour and read the bloody thing yourself! Read it and inwardly digest it so that you don't continue to make a complete arse of yourself.

Nosdan
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Post by Nosdan » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:19 am


FreakO said:
Can you please tell me, other than education, what Cornish rights are being abused or ignored?



You really didn't have to read far to get your answer... And there are far more as the list goes down.



Article 3

Every person belonging to a national minority shall have the right freely to choose to be treated or not to be treated as such and no disadvantage shall result from this choice or from the exercise of the rights which are connected to that choice.
Persons belonging to national minorities may exercise the rights and enjoy the freedoms flowing from the principles enshrined in the present framework Convention individually as well as in community with others.


FreakoMbiko
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Post by FreakoMbiko » Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:50 am



Wikipedia said:
Argumentum verbosium

Proof by verbosity is also used colloquially in forensic debate to describe a logical fallacy (sometimes called "argumentum verbosium") that tries to persuade by overwhelming those considering an argument with such a volume of material that the argument sounds plausible, superficially appears to be well-researched, and that is so laborious to untangle and check supporting facts that the argument is allowed to slide by unchallenged. It is the fallacy epitomized by the familiar quote: "If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, then baffle them with your bullshit."



You and Sentinel are very good friends with this and other poor types of argument, as been saying for weeks now to your deaf dears...


Hunlef said:
Now, having taken the trouble to trawl up the information, please do me the honour and read the bloody thing yourself! Read it and inwardly digest it so that you don't continue to make a complete arse of yourself.



NO!

I absolutly wont. I keep asking for clear answers, you two avoid the questions and spew on.

If you cannot, as asked, turn your verbose regurgitation in to succinct statements then, in my book, you simply dont have them.

So, read over your long list and ,should you find anything that can help you fill in the blanks below, please let me, and the rest know.



The rights of the Cornish that are being ignored are the right to a true and accurate education in Cornwall about Cornwall and _______________________ and _____________________.


Fill in the blanks.


































Sentinel
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Post by Sentinel » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:09 am

For the benefit of those others in MK who do not appear to know what a 'minority right' is, I suggest you study:

The Council of Europe Charter for Regional or Minority Languages; the Council of Europe Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities; the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Persons belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious or Linguistic Minorities; the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child [in particular Article 8]; the 1990 CSCE Copenhagen Document; the Oslo recommendations regarding the rights of national minorities and the Hague recommendations on national minorities.

These set out the standards of treatment to which many in the Cornish community aspire.


Sentinel
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Post by Sentinel » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:12 am

And by the way, has anyone ANY suggestions as to how MK can overcome its stated biggest problem. :-?

FreakoMbiko
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Post by FreakoMbiko » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:27 am


sentinel said:
And by the way, has anyone ANY suggestions as to how MK can overcome its stated biggest problem. :-?




How about this:

Totally ignore the sad little haters, mainly men I figure, who feel the Cornish issue is in fact the remnants of some ancient invasion, and, being essentially bored and boring, they take it upon themselves to fight this battle as if it is a battle rather than the complex ongoing process it is.

You go play Cowboys and Indians, leave the hard work to the disparate groups who strive make the effort to make change.

And maybe without thugs like you, Cornish nationalism can get some unity and make some progress for Cornwall.


Hunlef
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Post by Hunlef » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:47 am

Will somebody please get me an ambulance? My sides are splitting! :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

Manuel - I have never read anything so funny in many years. You are a plonker! :-D :-D

Sentinel
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Post by Sentinel » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:55 am

Asking for constructive suggestions as to how MK can overcome its biggest problem makes me, in the eyes of an MK Member, a "hateful thug".

If only you could channel your energies into solving MK's biggest problem, MK might get somewhere.

I suggested a way forward, but that was slapped down by MK members who - it seems - do not appear to have an alternative solution.

That is all.

Fulub-le-Breton
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Post by Fulub-le-Breton » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:59 am

marginal brothers,


Asking for constructive suggestions as to how MK can overcome its biggest problem makes me, in the eyes of an MK Member, a "hateful thug".



I think you'll find its the way you deliver your message as opposed to the message itself.

The reason you are ignore by MK and others, perhaps, is because you are unpleasent people.

Personality clash rather than any real ideological differences.

Hunlef
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Post by Hunlef » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:03 am

If by asking reasoned, well-articulated questions and levelling perfectly valid criticisms makes us unpleasant, well, so be it. You can rest assured, oh thrower of stones in glass houses, that I shall remain just as 'unpleasant'.

FreakoMbiko
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Post by FreakoMbiko » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:32 am


sentinel said:
For the benefit of those others in MK who do not appear to know what a 'minority right' is, I suggest you study:

The Council of Europe Charter for Regional or Minority Languages; the Council of Europe Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities; the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Persons belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious or Linguistic Minorities; the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child [in particular Article 8]; the 1990 CSCE Copenhagen Document; the Oslo recommendations regarding the rights of national minorities and the Hague recommendations on national minorities.

These set out the standards of treatment to which many in the Cornish community aspire.





The rights of the Cornish that are being ignored are the right to a true and accurate education in Cornwall about Cornwall and _______________________ and _____________________.

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