English but not British?

Topical debate
Sentinel
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Post by Sentinel » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:28 pm

Philips English nationalist mate infers he is English but not British. To me, this is like somebody saying he is Californian, but not an American - or me saying I am Cornish, but not a European.

Surely if you are born in America, or your origins or culture is American, you are an American. The same applies to a European, an Asian or an African.

Is it a sane proposition to be born in Britain, live in Britain, speak British English as your first and natural language, possess a British cultural background and hold a British passport, but then refuse to accept you are British? :-?


Morvran
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Post by Morvran » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:36 pm

There are two (or three?) meanings to "British", the Welsh in fact use two different words.

The usual meaning is "related to/ citizen of the UK of Gt. Britain & NI". This sense is political and goes back to the time of the union of England (incl. Wales) and Scotland, when the whole lot was called "Great Britain".

If you think that Cornwall was never part of England, then it follows that it was never part of Gt. Britain (England + Scotland). OTOH a purely geographical interpretation, anyone living in the island of Britain would have to include the Cornish. So that's a second meaning, going back to the Romans who called the island "Brittania".

Finally there's an ethnic/linguistic meaning, although this is mostly used in history or linguistics. That is anyone desended from the inhabitants of (most of) Britain when the Romans turned up, the "Ancient Brits", or who speaks a language descended from British. That would include the Welsh, Cornish, Bretons, and also the "Men of the North" for as long as they remained distinctive.

The English are citizens of Gt. Britain, but the Cornish may not be technically, but who else is going to give them a passport?

The English and Cornish clearly both inhabit parts of the island of Britain.

The Cornish are ethnically British but the English are not.


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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:07 pm

The Romans got "Britannia" from even earlier accounts such as Pytheas of Massalia's "Peritou Okeanou" (On the Ocean) written about 325 BC. He gave the native name for Britain as Pretannike (and the original P initial remains in Welsh Prydain and the Cornish place-name Predannack - which has to be one of the oldest surviving place-name we have because of that P).

I recommend (Professor) Barry Cunliffe's book; "The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek (the man who discovered Britain)" published by Penguin History in paperback 2002. ISBN 0-140-297-847. The paperback's cover has a colour photograph of Bedruthan Steps.



edited by: marhak, Aug 26, 2008 - 09:09 PM

Fulub-le-Breton
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Post by Fulub-le-Breton » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:42 am


Philips English nationalist mate



No not mate but we have exchanged a few opinions.

Funny though even if we disagree on many points I think there is much more likelyhood that I'd be Davids (of Britology watches) mate than the friend of a jerk with a personality dissorder.

Being polite does not equal being mates.





edited by: Fulub-le-Breton, Aug 27, 2008 - 11:06 AM

Sentinel
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Post by Sentinel » Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:54 am

It strikes me that your mates were historically happy to call themselves British - until Blacks started to adopt that identity.

Now, via all manner of ficticious, contorted, disfunctional and contradictory arguments, they want to disassociated themselves from the term British and call themselves just English.

Smacks of White English Exclusionism to me.

And you were discussing personality disorders?

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Post by Fulub-le-Breton » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:15 am


It strikes me that your mates were historically happy to call themselves British - until Blacks started to adopt that identity.




What do you mean by 'my mates'? The English people, progressive English Nationalists or far right scum? Or are they all one and the same to you?

I think one modern form of English nationalism got a boost from devolution to Scotland, Wales and the Six counties. Whilst English nationalism is often rotten with europhobia and xenophobia there are some more civic and progressive English nationalists around and in this group I would include David who has a very refreshing view on the Cornish question (for an eng nat) and who I doubt has much racist intent.

Undoubtedly there are far right factions in English nationalism who have ditched Britian following the advent of devolution and 'Black Britishness', but they are not the whole story.

The UK is a creaking ship and if Civic English nationalism smashes one more hole in the hull so much the better.

Sentinel
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Post by Sentinel » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:46 am

UKIP, BNP, Civic English nationalism call it what you like, but at its core is White English exclusionism.

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Post by Fulub-le-Breton » Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:32 pm

I don't quite see how Billy Brag or Andrew Kingsnorth, progressive English patriots, quite fit this bill but anyway.

Also UKIP and the BNP might be English supremacists but they wish to maintain the union, they are unionists.

Neither UKIP or the BNP want English independence from the Celtic nations or an English parliament. They just wish to maintain the English dominated UK status quo. True English nationalists are a different kettle of fish.

Sentinal do you oppose Scottish and Welsh independence with the creation, by default, of an English (plus Cornwall) parliament?

Settler
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Post by Settler » Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:53 pm

Sentinel, what is the problem? I have lived very happily in Kernow/Cornwall for 36 years was born in England and have always called myself English to differentiate between Cornish, Scottish (many of whom really do not like the English) Welsh and Irish.

My children were born here so I guess that makes them sort of Cornish but they can decide that for themselves.

Somehow I doubt i'll still be around if independence to Kernow ever comes but it would be interesting to witness it.


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Post by HeamoorMan » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:43 pm

English but not British, what a load of rubbish, and probably impossible,,,its quite simple...
British/English,,,,British/Scotish,,,,British/Welsh,,,British/N.Irish British/Manx,,, British/Cornish,,,,,easy as that end of story!!

Sentinel
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Post by Sentinel » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:06 pm

Said all innocently as if butter wouldn't melt in the mouth, "Sentinel, what is the problem?"

I'll tell you what the problem is:

ENGLISH SUPREMACISTS/NATIONALISTS/IMPERIALISTS

I dont care who is born here, who comes here, or what colour their skin is. I certainly don't have a problem with English people.

What I have a problem with is English supremacists/nationalists/imperialists, and in particular those [and this includes Phils mate 'David' over on Britology] English nationalists that try and play the victim card.

If you want to see victims - look no further.

Lets see now.....what entity is behind the refusal to include the Cornish in the Framework Convention; forcibly assimilating Cornish children; gerrymandering the constitution; deliberately under-recording us at the Census; keeping us in a legal no mans land, refusing to recognise our identity; imposing a self-gloryfing Curriculum, commandeering our built heritage, operating crooked courts etc and thats just for starters. :-x

Perhaps its the Welsh Nationalists, Al Qaeda or the latest bad guys - the Russians.

Answers on a postcard please.

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Marhak
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Post by Marhak » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:08 pm

Not to mention submerging and burying Cornish culture, as now proposed by "Culture South West". Or proposing to turn our wild and iconic West Cornish moorland landscapes into English municipal parks, as proposed by Natural "England" (aided and abetted by the National Front/Trust and "English" Heritage).



edited by: marhak, Aug 27, 2008 - 10:10 PM

Fulub-le-Breton
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Post by Fulub-le-Breton » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:07 am

Sentinal (and Marhak)

I have no problem with your description of the Cornish situation quite the opposite in fact. Cornish culture faces a much graver situation than the current West Lothian question generates for the English.

However do the English have a right to self determination and a clear tick box on the census. Do they have a right to organise themselves into pressure groups and political parties (hopefully civic and progressive) in order to forward these aims?

In Scat t'larrups JA uses the term 'fair minded English people' I think. Well insulting progressive Eng nats who respect the Cornish and who could play a part in disseminating the Cornish message seems a just little stupid.

Like I said before some people may be inspired and talented historians and legal experts but they should really stay in the back room when it comes to public relations.

As for everyone being British I agree that we all have UK citizenship (subjects) and that most of the UKs citizens live on Great Britain.

On the other hand Scots and Welsh nationalists can often be heard to say Welsh/Scottish not British when they talk about their national identity, I certainly claim my nationl identity to be Cornish so why can't the English do the same?

Of course we are all Britons in the sense we come from the large Island but does that make British our nationality?

Sentinel
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Post by Sentinel » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:52 am

England is indisputably within the island of Britain, and Britain is indisputable part of European continent.

It is impossible to be English, but also not be British and European.

Phil, why make a fool of youself defending these Eng Nats and their daft arguments?

Fulub-le-Breton
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Post by Fulub-le-Breton » Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:35 pm


It is impossible to be English, but also not be British and European.



Are we talking geography or nationality?

My nationality is Cornish and I am a Brition/European in that I come from these two geographical areas, but I will fight tooth and nail if people try to tell me that my nationality is British and not Cornish.

Surely the other nations from these isles have the same right?



edited by: Fulub-le-Breton, Aug 28, 2008 - 02:36 PM

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