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Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:52 pm
by Fulub-le-Breton
Please do explain, I've never heard anyone make such bizarre statement! Norway and Switzerland must be Third World countries...oh wait...
Norway is a tiny oil rich country and Switzerland exploits the world via its disgusting and amoral banking laws. Neither are an option for the UK.
The Parliament is elected.
The Commission is appointed by elected governments.
The European Council consists of elected heads of government.
The Council of Ministers consists of elected government ministers.
You could add to this that in the UK beloved of UKIP we have:

An unelected head of state plus numerous hangers-on.
Unelected feudal relics such as the Duchy of Cornwall.
An unelected second chamber.
An unelected prime minister.
A totally unrepresentative electoral system.
An unwritten constitution with no guarantee of legal equality.

The EU is not perfect but surely you can see that its got better democratic credentials than the UK. Your target should be the outdated undemocratic institutions in UK that have a far greater impact on the lives of people in Britain and Ireland but, blinded by I-don't-know-what, you refuse to see this and direct your anger at the EU.

Sorry Kitto but you've had your chance and it seems you've singularly failed to convince anyone that UKIP has changed. If anyone is delusional it is you. You seem to have no idea of the real nature of the party you're in and the opinions of the majority of its membership. UKIP has willingly chosen to join other populist low-brow far-right nut jobs in the EU parliament for good reason and its not to stop the BNP - honestly how stupid do you think we are?

I repeat; I'd be interested to see what would happen if UKIP became a libertarian party (totally distanced from the British hard-right) proposing UK federalism with Cornish, English, Scottish and Welsh parliaments - but I can predict one result. You'd loose a huge slice of your current base membership who'd drift back to the Tories, further into the far-right or into a new party.

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:55 pm
by Kitto
I agree entirely about reforming the UK, but the EU is beyond reform and beyond reason - why do you think Ireland was asked to vote twice??

We are a libertarian party, and we are becoming more libertarian, but you're right, being in a group with those nutters doesn't help, but we are in between a rock and a hard place on that issue.

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:03 pm
by carrek
Kitto wrote:I agree entirely about reforming the UK, but the EU is beyond reform and beyond reason - why do you think Ireland was asked to vote twice??
Ah the vote-twice argument.

The people of Ireland voted no because they didn't like the first offer. The government got some safeguards, then it and the EU made a second offer. The people voted yes.

Hear that?

THE PEOPLE agreed to the Lisbon Treaty after the government got its safeguards. They said YES.

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:05 pm
by Kitto
carrek wrote:
Kitto wrote:I agree entirely about reforming the UK, but the EU is beyond reform and beyond reason - why do you think Ireland was asked to vote twice??
Ah the vote-twice argument.

The people of Ireland voted no because they didn't like the first offer. The government got some safeguards, then it and the EU made a second offer. The people voted yes.

Hear that?

THE PEOPLE agreed to the Lisbon Treaty after the government got its safeguards. They said YES.
Safeguards? They've really helped Ireland... :roll:

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:08 pm
by carrek
Kitto wrote:Safeguards? They've really helped Ireland... :roll:
Do try to stay relevant to the topic of conversation. The people of Ireland voted yes.

The safeguards were on the number of commissioners, abortion, taxation and military neutrality. http://euobserver.com/9/26565

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:09 pm
by Kitto
carrek wrote:
Kitto wrote:Safeguards? They've really helped Ireland... :roll:
Do try to stay relevant to the topic of conversation. The people of Ireland voted yes.

The safeguards were on the number of commissioners, abortion, taxation and military neutrality. http://euobserver.com/9/26565
Yes, and now the EU wants to overturn any taxation safeguards.

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:11 pm
by carrek
Kitto wrote:Yes, and now the EU wants to overturn any taxation safeguards.
Such as?

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:11 pm
by CJenkin
Kitto wrote:
Marhak wrote:Kitto - this is a Cornish forum. Could you kindly change your avatar? That flag has historical, cultural and political associations which make it deeply insulting to many Cornish people. Thank you.
No, it doesn't. I've travelled throughout Cornwall, have Cornish relatives, and no-one (except for keyboard warriors) has ever been offended by "England". You are part of the problem not the solution I'm afraid.
Not the final 'solution' surely? :roll:

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:31 pm
by Kitto
That just lost you the argument - read up on Godwin's Law!

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:28 pm
by dolly pentreath
It is generally perceived that falling foul of Godwin's law tends to end up causing the individual making the comparison to lose their argument and/or credibility, as noted by a number of publications including in one article in The Daily Telegraph [8], however, Godwin's law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.[9] Similar criticisms of the "law" (or "at least the distorted version which purports to prohibit all comparisons to German crimes") have been made by Glenn Greenwald.[10]
I put it to you that invoking Godwin's Law anent a humorous aside is tantamount to misuse.

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:47 pm
by Kitto
As someone who used to live in Germany with a Jewish antifa member, I don't find it very humorous at all.

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:48 pm
by dolly pentreath
De gustibus &c.

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:27 pm
by Fulub-le-Breton
Wouldn't it be better to mix all the UKIP threads into this one. Tidy things up a bit wouldn't it.

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:43 pm
by TGG

Fulub, not sure any of them are worth saving, but see how others respond to your suggestion. The 2nd two were because of unilateral action in removing a load of off-topic posts, which seemed to be, imho, feeding pointless discord.

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why!

Re: UKIP speak Cornish

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:51 am
by Kitto
dolly pentreath wrote:De gustibus &c.
De gustibus aut bene, aut nihil