Konsel An Dre Essa

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saltashliberal
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Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by saltashliberal » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:50 pm

Following the whole bounaries hoo-hah Saltash TC has voted to use 'Konsel An Dre Essa' alongside Saltash Town Council on our letterhead etc.. To my knowledge Redruth TC and Cambourne TC already do similar.

In the week leading up to St Piran’s Day we also put up around 40 St Piran’s Flags in Fore St, which will remain in the coming months. On St Piran’s Day itself I had my Mayor's ball with a Cornish theme, Cornish produce, and a heartfelt rendering of Trelawney to the strains of pipes just before dinner...

just a little statement that Saltash is in Cornwall and intends to stay that way – in case anyone was in danger of forgetting...

and my census form just arrived...

carrek
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by carrek » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:14 pm

Always great to see greater use of Cornish in the public sphere.

But I'm pretty sure the correct translation for "Saltash Town Council" is "Konsel Tre Essa".

Pokorny
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by Pokorny » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:13 am

Gwir a leverydh. "Konsel Tre Essa" yw an treylyans ewn - **"Konsel AN Dre Essa" yw an keth ehen a gamm hag **"AN Orsedh Kernow".

CJenkin
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by CJenkin » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:55 am

Martesen "Konsel an dre" Ha "- Essa" po "Konsel an Dre, Essa" po "Konsel an Dre yn Essa" etc.?
Mes 'Konsel Tre Essa' yw gwella.

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Marhak
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by Marhak » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:58 am

Perhaps, as Essa's initial is a vowel, there might be a case for Konsel Trev Essa.

pietercharles
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by pietercharles » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:04 pm

Pokorny a skrifas:
**"Konsel AN Dre Essa" yw an keth ehen a gamm hag **"AN Orsedh Kernow".
Nyns yw an keth tra poran. Y’n lavar ‘Gorsedh Kernow’, ‘gorsedh’ ha ‘Kernow’ yw pur dhihaval ha styr a henna yw “an orsedh ‘piwvedhys’ gans Kernow". Hag y’n lavar ‘tre Essa’ an styr yw “an dre ‘piwvedhys’ gans Essa" mes ‘an dre’ hag ‘Essa’ yw an keth tra, hag yn gwiryonedh nebes koynt yw henna. Nyns yw an tre ‘piwvedhys’ gans Essa, an tre yw Essa.

Pan leveryn ‘Saltash Town’ yn Sowsnek yth yw kepar dell yw ‘Saltash’ po ‘Town’ hanow gwann. Po, martesen gwell, yth yw kepar dell yw ‘Saltash Town’ unnses unnik. Nyns yw “Saltash’s Town”, kepar dell yw y’n lavar kernewek “Tre Essa”.

Rakhenna ny garav 'Tre Essa' ha ny garav ‘Konsel Tre Essa’ drefenn my dhe glywes y’m eskern bos henna (Konsel) (Tre Essa) yn le (Konsel an Dre) (Essa) (yn Sowsnek an dyffrans a via (Saltash Town’s) (Council) ha (Saltash’s) (Town Council).

An kaletter yw an Sowsnek, dell grysav! “Saltash Town Council” yw yn gwiryonedh neb eghenn a verrheans a “The Town Council of Saltash”. Hemm yw, “yma lies Konsel yn Essa, mes ni a gews a-dro dhe onan anedha omma, henwys ‘Konsel an Dre’ ”. Nyns yw “The Council of the Town of Saltash” (“Konsel Tre Essa”). Hemm yw, yma unn Konsel yn unnik yn Essa, henwys ‘An Konsel’, ha ni a gews a-dro dhodho ev.

Unnver ov bos ‘Konsel an Dre Essa’ kamm, mes gwell via dhymm po lavar gans komma – “Konsel an Dre, Essa”, po lavar gans ‘yn’ – “Konsel an Dre yn Essa”, po martesen lavar gans ‘a’ – “Konsel an Dre a Essa”.
Ny dhevnydhyn lavarow a’n par ma gans ‘a’ yn fenowgh, hag yma tus a lever aga bos difennys, mes my a glyw bos ‘Konsel Tre Essa’ (Konsel) (Tre Essa), hag anattes ov gans (Tre Essa) dell leveris kyns. Mes ‘Konsel an Dre a Essa’ yw (Konsel an Dre) (Essa) – henn yw, "konsel an dre" 'piwvedhys' gans "Essa".

An areth a dhiwedh omma (awos ow bos lemmyn pur gemmyskys, dell wonn ha dell welowgh!!).

Pokorny
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by Pokorny » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:01 pm

Fatel via "Konsel-Tre Essa" gans strik?
-> Konsel-Tre Essa ((The Town Council) of (Saltash)) vs. Konsel Tre Essa (The Council of (Saltash Town))

Yma an keth kudyn yn Bretonek, heb mar: mir orth henwyn kepar ha "Ti ar Vro Bro Leon". Nebes kledhek semlant an hanow na martesen, hag ynwedh nyns ywa ewn yn tien, mes yn py fordh aral y halser treylya ((House of the Region) of the (Region of Leon)) heb amstyreth vyth?

carrek
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by carrek » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:16 pm

Na woryn nei mars ujy "Saltash Town Council" en Sowsnek menya "The Council of Saltash Town" po "The Town Council of Saltash".

Na dal dhe nei predery re veur anodho, nei vedn kelly agan honen en semantek. Nei dal usya an furv a wra dos an moyha naturek.

dolly pentreath
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by dolly pentreath » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:45 pm

Konsel an Dre Essa/Lyskerrys/Aberfala h.e. re beu kevys yn An Gannas dres lies blydhen. Kernewegoryon kepar ha Wella Brown, Graham Sandercock ha Ken George a wra devnydh an lavar-na. My a wayt tus kottha kepar ha Morden ha Talek a wre y leverel ynwedh - hag ewn yw, my yw sur.

Yma tus ow tos ha bos kemmyskys gans hemma, my a grys. Nyns yw 'Konsel an Dre Essa' assay dhe dreylya yn poran 'Saltash Town Council', mes leveryans Kernewek a wra treylya dhe 'The Town Council of Saltash' - yma dyfrans!

An patron yw hemma:

Karr Pieter.........................(karr) (Pieter)......... 'car (of) Pieter'.......... ('Pieter's car')

Daras an karr Pieter .............(daras an karr) (Pieter)......'door (of) the car (of) Pieter......... ('the car door of Pieter' po an leveryans usadow yn Sowsnek 'Pieter's car door')

Ytho, Konsel an Dre Essa yw (Konsel an Dre) (Essa) ..... 'Council (of) the Town (of) Essa.... ('the Town Council of Saltash' po an leveryans usadow yn Sowsnek 'Saltash Town Council')

Na vydh digolonhees, saltashliberal! Ty yw ewn - pellgows orth Wella Brown, Fordh Frith, marr mynnta y jekkya.

Ha rag an re na konvedh lowr agan yeth-ni yn lowr:

For those who don't understand or language sufficiently:

Konsel an Dre Essa/Lyskerrys/Aberfala etc. have been found yn An Gannas for many years. Cornish speakers such as Wella Brown, Graham Sandercock and Ken George use this expression. I expect older people such as Morden and Talek used to say it as well, and it's correct, I am sure.

People are becoming confused with this, I believe. 'Konsel an Dre Essa' is not an attempt to translate exactly 'Saltash Town Council' but a Cornish expression which translates as 'The Town Council of Saltash' - there is a difference!


The pattern is thus:

Karr Pieter.........................(karr) (Pieter)......... 'car (of) Pieter'.......... ('Pieter's car')

Daras an karr Pieter .............(daras an karr) (Pieter)......'door (of) the car (of) Pieter......... ('the car door of Pieter' or the usual idiom in English - in this context - 'Pieter's car door')

So, 'Konsel an Dre Essa' is (Konsel an Dre) (Essa) ..... 'Council (of) the Town (of) Essa.... ('the Town Council of Saltash' or the usual idiom in English - in this context - 'Saltash Town Council')

Don't be disheartened, saltashliberal!

'Konsel an Dre Essa' is correct - phone Wella Brown, Frith Road, if you want to check it out.

Pokorny
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by Pokorny » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:55 pm

Gav dhymm, a Dholly, mes kamm yw "daras an karr Pieter". "Daras karr Pieter" yw an unn fordh ewn a leverel henna herwydh rewlys gramasek an yethow Keltek.

karr Pieter (the car of Pieter)
daras karr Pieter (the door of the car of Pieter)
alhwedh daras karr Pieter (the key of the door of the car of Pieter)
etc. etc.
Nyns eus ger mell vyth yn frasennow a'n par.

Martesen y halsa Palores leverel neppyth a-dro dhe hemma?

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Marhak
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by Marhak » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:05 pm

Any comments about using Drev before the initial vowel of Essa? (Konsel an Drev Essa). This is usual with Tre.

pietercharles
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by pietercharles » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:39 pm

Pokorny a skrifas: Gav dhymm, a Dholly, mes kamm yw "daras an karr Pieter".
Gwir a leverydh, heb mar, ha rakhenna y kryssys bos "konsel an dre Essa" kamm ynwedh. Mes ny syw an eyl dhiworth y gila.

Yn kynsa, nyns yw "an karr Pieter" (kamm) po "karr Pieter" (ewn) ensampel da drefenn y vos kepar hag "an Orsedh Kernow" (kamm) po "Gorsedh Kernow" (ewn). Nyns yw 'karr' ha 'Pieter', hag 'orsedh' ha 'Kernow' (dell leveris kyns) an keth tra, hag y'n kasow na, pan yw an dhew dra dyffrans, ni a woer bos 'karr Pieter' ha 'Gorsedh Kernow' da hag ewn.

Mes 'tre' yw an keth tra hag 'Essa', hag ottena an digolm, herwydh Wella Brown. Ev a lever (pgf. 59) bos "an avon Tamer" da drefenn bos an ger "Tamer" 'in simple apposition' dhe'n geryow "an avon", ha'n styr a henna yw "an avon henwys Tamer". Mars yw henna da, es yw gweles bos "an dre Essa" da ynwedh, ha dhodho an styr "an dre henwys Essa".

Ha (wor'tiwedh!) mars yw "an dre Essa" da, kler yw bos 'Konsel an dre Essa' da ynwedh.

Mes hwath yma kudynn a neb sort!! Drefenn bos an styr a henna (Konsel) (an dre henwys Essa) yn le
(Konsel an dre) (Essa). Ytho, "The Council of Saltash Town" yn le "The Town Council of Saltash". Hag yma dyffrans, kyn fo byghan.

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Marhak
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by Marhak » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:06 pm

I guess not.

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factotum
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by factotum » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:58 pm

Margheg, the break in sense comes between _Konsel-an-dre_ and _Essa_ so no 'v'. Unless you want to refer to Saltash as _Trevessa_, then I suppose you'd have _Konsel-an-dre, Trevessa_, like Alberts Breton example.

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Marhak
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Re: Konsel An Dre Essa

Post by Marhak » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:51 pm

Thanks for responding, Keith, but I can't equate your advice with the use of hag before a vowel, or pleth before a vowel, etc. However, I can see the sense if the whole thing was on two lines:

Konsel an Dre
Essa

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