Cornish Devolution Now

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Fulub-le-Breton
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Cornish Devolution Now

Post by Fulub-le-Breton » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:26 am

Cornish Devolution on Digital Democracy: http://www.digitaldemocracy.org.uk/deba ... hp?id=3850

Concern: 50,000 people signed a petition in 2002 calling for Cornish devolution. I am concerned by the lack of democratic representation for the Celtic nation and constitutional Duchy of Cornwall.

Solution: The solution is a Cornish assembly now. Full details on the Cornish assembly campaign can be found here: http://www.cornishassembly.org/
Digital Democracy enables you and your community to discuss and prioritise issues, then challenges your MP to respond

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Marhak
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by Marhak » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:44 am

Speaking for myself, I think we should assert our existing rights. The Charter of Pardon 1508 reconfirmed Cornwall's right to its own parliament, with additional rights of veto over Acts, Statutes, etc., made in Westminster. Those rights were ignored by London 41 years later and it's a tactic they still, unlawfully, apply today even though their validity at law has been confirmed in modern times (1977). We should be insisting that the law be observed.

Others will know better than me, but perhaps that Cornish parliament can't be convened by anyone other than the Duke, who won't do so. There must be a way to force his hand - a nation can't be held to ransom by one man like this. An Assembly is only second best and London has to make new laws to permit it. Which it won't. So, why don't we insist upon the existing law?

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TGG
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by TGG » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:29 am


Nothing is likely to happen without some intervening formal status, such as an Assembly, and a broad-based Constitutional Convention, where the issues are debated and agreed. Also, there is the problem of improving the political will of the people, so that they are receptive to what is being said.

I believe that you can use 'privileged tinners' to petition the Duke to convene the assembly, but that has to comply with the appropriate guidelines. It is not something that is going to happen overnight and we should ALL be seriously laying the foundations on a daily basis.

Fulub's link is, possibly, another string to the Cornish bow, and should be pursued vigorously.

TGGFor The (Real)Reason Why!
STOP THE CORNISH GENOCIDE! -
They declare their Cornishness with pride
Whilst oblivious to our genocide
That England imposes
With smiles and Red Roses
Where the innocents, so gullibly, reside.


carrek
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by carrek » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:48 pm

The problem with this approach is that it doesn't understand the extent of how completely ridiculous the British constitution is. There are a whole range of laws that are routinely ignored - in the city of York it is legal to murder a Scotsman within the ancient city walls, but only if he is carrying a bow and arrow. And putting a stamp upside down on a letter is 'treason'. And in England, all men over the age of 14 must carry out two hours of longbow practice a day. And it's illegal to eat mince pies on Christmas Day.

My point is that these laws all represent parts of British law that are ignored. Someone who kills a bow-and-arrow carrying Scot within York's city walls might be acting legally, but it's likely they'd still be charged with murder. Just the same, the rights we have under the Duchy might be legal, but they are ignored because the Duchy isn't part of the modern system of UK governance.

Anyone who thinks Cornwall will suddenly go from being a "county" to an extraterritorial duchy overnight, with MPs saying "oh sorry we didn't realise", is being extraordinarily naive about how politics in this country works. Any change in the constitutional status of Cornwall will go through a debate in Parliament, and a referendum in Cornwall. That's a fact. There are only two options for us:

1) Campaign to turn Cornwall Council into a special devolved "county-region", and every decade or so slowly increase its powers, closer and closer to that of the Welsh Assembly, then to that of the Scottish Parliament.

2) Campaign to have the Duchy's rights and privileges transferred to Cornwall Council, making Cornwall a de facto autonomous area of the UK, and then begin the same process of greater devolution to it.

This should go hand in hand with increasing pressure on the government to recognise the Cornish as a national minority, which could increase the viability of granting an autonomous status to Cornwall. After a while, when we're sure public opinion is on side, have a referendum on whether or not Cornwall should leave England.

We won't get devolution by going backwards to legal-yet-ignored laws, we have to go forward through the current political process.

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Stephen Richardson
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by Stephen Richardson » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:20 pm

carrek wrote: 2) Campaign to have the Duchy's rights and privileges transferred to Cornwall Council, making Cornwall a de facto autonomous area of the UK, and then begin the same process of greater devolution to it.
Absolutely agree with everything you said in your post. The hihlighted point is why a full inquiry into the status of the Duchy is required. You need to know what the modern rights and privileges amount to before you can transfer them.
When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.

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Marhak
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by Marhak » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:36 pm

To be honest, Stephen, the ridiculous thing is that Britain does not have a Constitution. It's a word that is bandied about without meaning a thing. The only workable constitution is a written one, and that does not exist in Britain.

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Marhak
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by Marhak » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:37 pm

Although, to be fair, the American Constitution, which is written, doesn't seem to mean much to recent administrations.

carrek
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by carrek » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:13 pm

We have what's known as an 'uncodified constitution'. It came about because the UK has evolved over time and has never had a single moment of creation, unlike France and the US which came about due to revolution.
Stephen Richardson wrote:The hihlighted point is why a full inquiry into the status of the Duchy is required. You need to know what the modern rights and privileges amount to before you can transfer them.
Agreed. We should be looking at who can deliver an inquiry and lobbying them. MPs would be the obvious target but Charlie boy's Parliamentary gagging order won't help.

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GrahamHart
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by GrahamHart » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:27 pm

carrek wrote:....... Cornwall should leave England.
So de jure is now out the window. That'll suit the EIS down to the ground to continue to run the Cornish around in circles
carrek wrote: We won't get devolution by going backwards to legal-yet-ignored laws, we have to go forward through the current political process.
I couldn't disagree more.

The "Keep Cornwall Whole" campaign failed because they didn't have the balls to use those legal-yet-ignored laws.

The Trelawney Alliance is currently failing miserably because it chooses to campaign using the current political process, whereas if it used those totally legal yet-ignored laws, they would triumph.

There is much headway to be made using "Tinners Rights" but it takes balls to use them and herein lies the problem. Balls, my friends. Balls.

Finally, we are back to the absurdity of seeking devolution by way of an assembly without recognition. How ridiculous.

carrek
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by carrek » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:33 pm

GrahamHart wrote:
carrek wrote:....... Cornwall should leave England.
So de jure is now out the window. That'll suit the EIS down to the ground to continue to run the Cornish around in circles
Realpolitik is what's needed, not some idealistic sentiment about a few ignored laws among many.
GrahamHart wrote:
carrek wrote: We won't get devolution by going backwards to legal-yet-ignored laws, we have to go forward through the current political process.
I couldn't disagree more.

The "Keep Cornwall Whole" campaign failed because they didn't have the balls to use those legal-yet-ignored laws.
What do you expect to have happened had they used them? Which laws in particular do you think would have been useful?
GrahamHart wrote:The Trelawney Alliance is currently failing miserably because it chooses to campaign using the current political process, whereas if it used those totally legal yet-ignored laws, they would triumph.
I've got no idea who they are or what they do, so maybe that's not why they're failing.
GrahamHart wrote:There is much headway to be made using "Tinners Rights" but it takes balls to use them and herein lies the problem. Balls, my friends. Balls.
It would take balls to kill a bow-and-arrow wielding Scotsman within the York city walls then claim it's legal, but nobody would be calling you brave when you're standing in the dock for murder.

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GrahamHart
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by GrahamHart » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:03 pm

1. Good law is not sentiment carrek.

2. That we are a Duchy, a Crown dependency and not as speaker after speaker said; "A county".

3. http://trelawney-alliance.org/

4. Now you're just being plain silly.

Fulub-le-Breton
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by Fulub-le-Breton » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:00 pm

This is all well and good - please do keep the debate up - but also PLEASE visit the Digital Democracy site, sign in and leave your support!!!

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Marhak
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by Marhak » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:07 pm

Carrek - if you or I ignored the law governing murder, how far would we get? So why should London get away with it, even after 462 years? A law is a law, especially one as important as one guaranteeing a nation a government of its own.

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Marhak
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by Marhak » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:08 pm

Incidentally, the UK DID have a defined moment of creation - the Act of Union 1707.

carrek
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Re: Cornish Devolution Now

Post by carrek » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:42 pm

Carrek - if you or I ignored the law governing murder, how far would we get? So why should London get away with it, even after 462 years? A law is a law, especially one as important as one guaranteeing a nation a government of its own.
Unforunately because they are ones in power. They are the ones who get the final say over devolution. It's not fair and it's not right, but there 'tis.
Incidentally, the UK DID have a defined moment of creation - the Act of Union 1707.
Not so much the creation of a new country, more like England gaining a bit more land then renaming itself.

After the French and American revolutions the entire political system was redrawn. After the Act of Union, the existing English political system was just extended into Scotland.
Last edited by carrek on Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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